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 Alum /Akaline Battery
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - May 19 2012 :  18:37:24  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm

So you did get the first alum batt to hold a charge at the C20 rate??

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - May 19 2012 :  21:11:30  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey 49er
Yes I did it turned out perfect. The 2nd one is coming along fine but the 3rd one is trying to be a problem. Charge rate the first time was at 24hrs to 15.2v, discharge was 2hrs. After the 4th time its down to 8hrs at 15.9v and discharge is at 1hr. Its going backwards :( but Im not done with it.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - May 20 2012 :  10:13:56  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Guys
After my last post I decided to ust try and kill that problem battery. Guess what I couldnt. It just proved why I want to to use em.
The voltage dropped to 12.05v in about 45min. Then it took 4hrs to drop to 11.79v.
The 2nd battery was a fully reconditioned one which may be why it hasnt given me as much trouble but I had stopped working on it untill I get another charger built or I finish this battery. Switching between both batterys with this little SS was taking to long.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - May 20 2012 :  16:49:19  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm

If you have access to 24v you can make the TS and kick it a little harder. just ask SD3T..

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - May 21 2012 :  05:29:09  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey 49er
Had already planed on it. LOL
Just arived 5lbs of 18ga wire, Still waiting for the transistors.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - May 21 2012 :  10:53:39  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm

SD3T and I are learning on every battery. This TS setup has been a real learning curve something new every day and SDs batteries is proof of that. It will be interesting to see if it will work on Alum batteries to.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
Go to Top of Page

msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - May 30 2012 :  08:59:16  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey 49er
Started my TS but the weather dosent want to cooperate. Lightning storms in the evenings. I dont think I want to be winding wire in the back yard, crispy me. LOL

Anyway, update on this prob battery. At first I was only discharging to 12.0v 1-2hrs. I went to 11.8v 3-4hrs. Then I remembered
(in a little 49er voice) Alum batterys are only rated at 80%. So I hooked up my 2.75amp light and left it.
17hrs later I was at 11.3v........and holding!!

When I started this battery and still had sulfuric acid in it. I was using it as a work battery on my bench and it held up
well over 12v but as soon as it dropped below 12.0v the bottom fell out and it went to 9.6v with in an hour. This happened twice which is why I decided to convert it.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - June 10 2012 :  10:16:46  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Guys
I know I said that I think Baking Soda NOT GOOD!! But in the spirit of experimentation I started yet another Alum battery. At first
the battery had 12.3v with any load it dropped to 9.6v
After dumping the acid out I mixed 2tsp of baking soda to 1 gal of tap water, (very weak) filled and let soak for about 15min. Then rinsed with tap water about 6-7 times untill ALL the black/grey sediment was gone. Filled with Alum solution and after 1 charge it acts as if nothing was ever wrong. Havent messured the c20 discharge yet but you can tell that its good.

Thus far I would say that maybe the battery im having trouble with still had enough acid in it to effect the Alum solution. going to dump it and retry. Will let you all know what happens.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - June 10 2012 :  10:27:48  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm

Yes this is what I told shak and I agree with you 100% it does clean out the battery before you add your alum and this is the only way you use soda. Do keep us updated on your alum battery project I think it is a good way to go for small batteries that don't get frozen.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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shakamuni01
Average Member



USA
213 Posts

Posted - June 10 2012 :  20:10:41  Show Profile Send shakamuni01 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting. What I did was I "cooked" the baking soda on a regular charger. I figured it would speed up the process- not sure if that f'ed up the battery. However you are saying msm that it is as good as new without any "cooking", so sounds like that is the better bit. Also I am wondering the the sulpheric acid is nutralized with baking soda how toxic it is to the environment. I am on a septic and in general want to dispose of any toxic matter in the most effective way. At times I let the container full of such solutions just evaporate, so then it is concentrated. Any ideas on this. It's a sad world when we have to buy clean water which was given in abundance by God so don't want to make it worse than it is......
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - June 10 2012 :  22:16:55  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Shaka
Of this Im not sure. The sulfuric acid I put in sealed jugs and either give them to the people that supply our batterys when they pick up cores or I take it to the county recycle station. The first rinse with baking soda should not be toxic, at least I dont think so. If anyone knows for sure please let us know.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - June 11 2012 :  12:31:32  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm and shak

I agree with msm 100% but don't pour it down the toilet it may kill your bacteria in the tank. The soda won't hurt the ground but put it in a pan in the sun and let it dry and reuse it LOL

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
Go to Top of Page

shakamuni01
Average Member



USA
213 Posts

Posted - June 12 2012 :  06:43:11  Show Profile Send shakamuni01 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So MSMjr,

You said alkaline batteries are only rated at 80%. SO does this mean you can discharge it to 80% of 12v which makes 9.6v or something?

ALso how much Alum did you use to convert the old acid battery. I suppose it depends on the size of the battery but is there a good dilution rate? I got some alum which was not cheap in OZ $7 for 100 grams. I am sure I can find it cheaper but just wanted to tinker with it before I get a big batch.

The idea that you can discharge it a lot more is quite appealing....

quote:
Originally posted by msmjr

Hey 49er
Started my TS but the weather dosent want to cooperate. Lightning storms in the evenings. I dont think I want to be winding wire in the back yard, crispy me. LOL

Anyway, update on this prob battery. At first I was only discharging to 12.0v 1-2hrs. I went to 11.8v 3-4hrs. Then I remembered
(in a little 49er voice) Alum batterys are only rated at 80%. So I hooked up my 2.75amp light and left it.
17hrs later I was at 11.3v........and holding!!

When I started this battery and still had sulfuric acid in it. I was using it as a work battery on my bench and it held up
well over 12v but as soon as it dropped below 12.0v the bottom fell out and it went to 9.6v with in an hour. This happened twice which is why I decided to convert it.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus


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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - June 12 2012 :  20:33:48  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Shaka
Battery size dosent matter, its the concentration that does. I used 4oz per gal of distilled water. As for the 80% I belive the reference is to amps and the C20 charge/discharge rates. I myself am still new to a lot of this, But Im sure 49er could shed more light on this.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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shakamuni01
Average Member



USA
213 Posts

Posted - June 12 2012 :  21:28:18  Show Profile Send shakamuni01 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah I guess I remember hearing somewhere that alkaline batteries can be discharged more. But in the case of a lead-alum battery what are the levels before the battery is harmed. I know for ni-cads they like full discharges.
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - June 13 2012 :  10:01:44  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi shak

And no Ni cad don't like to go to -0- volts. yes it is true that they give up all most all there amps fast but the first battery to give up its all goes into turning its guts inside out until the rest of the group falls off and after 15 to 20 charges that first battery gives up its amps so fast that the bank drops its strength in just a short time. Its is like dropping a cylinder on a v8 but when you drop the second cylinder it is really noticeable. Back to that first battery as soon as you turn it inside out once it is doomed so no the Ni cad should not be drained to -0- volts.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
Go to Top of Page

shakamuni01
Average Member



USA
213 Posts

Posted - June 14 2012 :  04:13:08  Show Profile Send shakamuni01 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So MSMjr based on you saying you let it discharge to 11.3v, how much lower do you reckon it can be discharged without hurting the battery?


quote:
Originally posted by msmjr

Hey 49er
Started my TS but the weather dosent want to cooperate. Lightning storms in the evenings. I dont think I want to be winding wire in the back yard, crispy me. LOL

Anyway, update on this prob battery. At first I was only discharging to 12.0v 1-2hrs. I went to 11.8v 3-4hrs. Then I remembered
(in a little 49er voice) Alum batterys are only rated at 80%. So I hooked up my 2.75amp light and left it.
17hrs later I was at 11.3v........and holding!!

When I started this battery and still had sulfuric acid in it. I was using it as a work battery on my bench and it held up
well over 12v but as soon as it dropped below 12.0v the bottom fell out and it went to 9.6v with in an hour. This happened twice which is why I decided to convert it.
Go to Top of Page

msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - June 14 2012 :  06:38:53  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Shaka
You can, its not supposed to hurt an Alum/Alkaline battery but I try not to make a habit of it. My target is 11.8 but on this problem battery the bracket seems to be 12.3v charged and rested to 11.3v at 20hrs discharge/ dosent matter if I charge it to 16v
or discharge to 9.6v thats where its happy. 49er has said that each battery can be different this battery seems to want to be different and it works fine. So for now, what Im using it for, suits my purpose. I just keep charging it with my SS and see if 1 day it changes.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - June 14 2012 :  08:58:07  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm and shak

Just remember you two are writing the book book on Alum for the forum so make sure you log everything and thanks

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
Go to Top of Page
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