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 SSG: The "You Can't Switch Around Batteries" Topic
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kcarring
Moderator


Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 03 2012 :  20:06:39  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One of the more confusing claims that I have encountered is that one which states you cannot take a purely "radiant charged battery" from the charging position, and run it as the "source" or primary battery. I've read the claims, and the reasoning - however - it is highly based on unfound claims of "radiant" energy to begin with, which, has not been inconclusively proven to exist in the first place...

so instead...

What are you experiences, with actually having tried to do so?

And what are some of the "said work-around" (i.e. cap dumping, inverters - and do they work?

Are there really differences?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 03 2012 :  21:00:39  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is one very simple reason they say you cant swap the run and charge battery's around Kcarring-and that is so they dont have to prove that it can run itself or that you will end up with more than you started with.There is absolutly no reason that the charged battery's cannot be used on a resistive load as all you are doing is desulphating(cleaning) the battery plates.This alows the battery to hold more charge -but you in no way change anything else in the battery.You will find that most of the JB club will come up with reason's that eliminate any attempt at showing a self runner-you cant do this because-you cant do that because,Always the same lol.

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 03 2012 :  23:04:21  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Tinman

Quite the Satanic graphic dude. Chop 'em up.

I thought it was the other way around (the theory I mean) in that you COULD use it on a resistive load (light bulb etc.) and that you COULD NOT use it on an inductive load (Blocking oscillator)?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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Poppy
Average Member



USA
418 Posts

Posted - February 03 2012 :  23:06:02  Show Profile Send Poppy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Everybody...

I don't know about anybody else but, I swap batteries all the time. I keep switching the batteries so they have relatively the same charge all the time. Even my little werker 5ah battery will charge my larger 7.2ah battery well over 12 volts even when the voltage of the werker drops below 12 volts.

Good Experimenting...
Poppy
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twally67
Average Member



USA
251 Posts

Posted - February 04 2012 :  15:10:21  Show Profile Send twally67 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
like i have said b4 the monopole group on yahoo is about the battery and what happens if you charge it radiantly versus conventional and how the ssg does it...not about if the ssg is capable of being over-unity....that is discussed in the advanced group....and how to obtain that not by the ssg but the way batteries are used to achieve that...thats all...nothing more...it is all about a kinda way of working backwards from load to source and building a device to achieve that.
now with the plain ssg you will get some loss..i don't care how you do it..i have tried and the closest i have gotten was .02 volt loss over a 4 hour period..now if you improve or add to the ssg maybe it is possible(like adding a cap pulsar to the charge so both radiant and cap charge) ( i don't know)but i only use the ssg for what it was built for a charger and rejuvenator nothing more....

sometimes meltdowns though kinda $$ make the best inspirations!!!

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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - February 04 2012 :  15:57:17  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i think a good reason is one i stress, and thats the voltage on the battery does not always translate into a certain amount of available amp-hours.



[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 04 2012 :  21:19:44  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Magneticitist

i think a good reason is one i stress, and thats the voltage on the battery does not always translate into a certain amount of available amp-hours.


After a year of playing with these circuits, I can boldly say, neither "read" charging voltage, nor resting voltage, have, necessarily , anything at all to do with a battery's capability to do work.

It was, and is a huge source of confusion. But, the same holds true for conventional charging too. It's just potentially a lot worse with pulsing HV, as I am seeing it, anyway. Very easy to have "fluff".

But... that wasn't really the point, that I was after with this thread. Nor was "is the SSG overunity and/or which group adequately discusses or approaches it" ...

The fact remains, it has been written: You can't change the SSG's batteries back and forth, it is told - (without moving to a different variant of the circuit).

Really? Or is that bull*Nice*. What happens when you try to. Like what really happens, with two KNOWN GOOD batteries, that would warrant anyone to ever claim that. Does the "charged" battery "lie to you" - i.e. it fails to display a capacity, or does it fail to make the rotor turn, or, or, ... what possibly can be demonstrated to show this claim? What is the telltale to this having any truth.

One of the reasons that I'm interested in it, is, if it is actually true, if it can be verified... then possibly there is some "other form of charging" taking place as John clearly claims in his videos - because as I see it - there is none, that I've witnessed. I see it as pulsed electrical current with no apparent difference than any other electricity. At all.

It would be interesting to see a demo of this supposed difference. I.e., a battery charged "radiantly" as they call it - able to sustain a resistive load (light) or better yet a heater with it's output measure - yet, when idenitcally "recharged", same watthours in from the same standing voltage, a measurable, perceivable difference in it's ability to drive a similar but inductive load requirement. If you think about it, that is very bold claim, suggesting that a battery contains a different form of energy than is commonly known. Especially considering how long inductors have been in use. "Negative Electricity" or "radiant Energy". I'm not saying it is impossible.. but is there something more to prove it than the color of a discharging capacitor spark? So far that is all that I have seen....

It would actually say a lot. Or is it just another claim, unproven, untested, and not demonstrated.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on February 04 2012 21:27:54
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - February 04 2012 :  22:16:00  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i see what u mean, but i think what i was saying is exactly related to what u are referring to.

at first glance, we see a system that in an ideal scenario, can take a run battery at lets say 13v, and a charge battery at lets say 11v.

in this scenario the circuit could run for a while until eventually the overall standing voltages between the two have risen. i see this all the time.

again at first glance this may appear as if your primary battery had squeezed out a small fraction of amperage that resulted in the charging battery to have a larger fraction of available amperage.

because the charge batts voltage may have some of this "fluff", if you were to reverse these batteries the new running battery would drop its newly charged voltage at a faster rate. the end result obviously would be more and more losses between them as the cycles continued.

this is evident in the fact that we have isolated running and charging batteries. a certain measurable and exhaustible power source.

if we were to fully charge a battery using a bedini with an adapter input, to the point where we could say its actually on a "full" charge and not "fluffy", it would then be able to run any loads totally fine.. but then we can't really say how much overall energy we pulled from the adapter to charge this battery. we could probably assume it would be around the same amount of energy it would take to fully charge the battery were it coming from another battery power source.

lets say the adapter power dissipation was 24 watts @12v for a period of 8 hours, in order to fully charge a 12v battery.

using the battery power source, we would also drain around 2 amps from it for a period of 8 hours. after which time, were we to compare our input batt with our charge batt, one would be charged, and the other would be "DEAD".

as TinMan said, its an easy-workaround.

but then where does the inductive vs resistive load thing come in?
well how exactly can they measure that?

are they running resistive loads on the charged batteries, as well as inductive loads, each being fed the same watts over time, and then observing the rates at which each load drains the battery?

i mean that doesn't even make sense. its actually one of those aspects of Bedini's explanations that makes so little sense to me i find it almost insultingly absurd. if we have a battery made to facilitate certain chemical reactions that give us power, i can understand devising an array of different methods for delivering the power the battery needs to become "charged". no matter the method, we are still stimulating the battery with the same variables, our voltage and current. maybe we can find certain methods that provide these variables at levels more desirable than others.

but how is it exactly that we are changing the chemical reactions in the battery so that when it discharges, it no longer discharges giving us "normal" volts and amps, rather "radiant" volts and amps. i call that nonsense.

that idea was also enforced by the idea a radiant charged and conditioned battery will no longer accept a conventional charge properly. thats another thing i've never been able to notice, so of course the obvious response would be my batteries were never "properly conditioned" to begin with. its also a convenient marketing tactic.. why tell people to use your product rarely just for repairs when they can be told a repaired battery makes their old chargers obsolete.

i for one have noticed that batteries charged using high voltage from either an inductor collapse or transformer stepped power can charge very successfully and seem to gain some type of "extra" bit of juice.
but i can also say all of these batteries still charge totally fine from regular DC. in a realistic situation when time is of the essence, i will throw a 12v 1A adapter supply directly across a AAA battery for a few minutes before i put it on a bedini using the same adapter for those same few minutes because what that overpowered adapter is ramming into it is going to give it a longer lasting charge.

"radiant" energy in general is a term that I have associated with static electricity, light, and all types of other atmospheric waves.
I believe if Tesla was to describe a solar panel, he would call it a translator of radiant energy.

i also notice that any time some experimenters are able to get any kind of indication in the atmosphere of a voltage, they call it radiant energy. whether its lighting an led with one wire, or picking up interference on a radio, or simply seeing high peaks on a scope, they call it this "radiant" energy. since i consider voltage in the atmosphere "radiant" energy i guess i can agree. it is indeed "radiating" in a way. but that's all it is to me as of now.. voltage.. the same voltage any AC tester will pickup around any high voltage device. the same voltage formed in clouds during storms, so i guess lightning is the ultimate radiant.

I tried John's charging.. it worked.. i tried other similar charging, it worked the same way.. he showed strange things with his energy like lighting a neon through the battery plastic.. i did it through the rubber with his circuit and other circuits.. i noticed a lot of high frequency interference coming from John's circuits that would affect audio equipment and even light led's and floro's with one wire.. i can do the same thing with any high voltage circuit. in that respect i don't differentiate what John refers to as radiant from any other form of high voltage.


[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]

Edited by - Magneticitist on February 04 2012 22:17:09
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 04 2012 :  22:37:12  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Twally-please understand tha i in no way refer to yourself when talking about the JB fan club and there claim's, as i know you never make any such claim's.But here is a clasic example of what im talking about in this vidio.If you take note from 1m30sec john says it will run of the cap but he like's to use the battery for recharge.You must be logged in to see this link.
Why not-just for 30 seconds,disconect the battery and show everyone that it is running of the cap and the voltage in the cap is actualy going up-i mean he claim's it's recharging the battery so the voltage in the cap should go up!!right?!!.No it wont and you will never see these guy's show it either-there will always be an excuse as why they wont or cant.
In reguards to having that higher voltage in your battery's after charging with the radiant energy-sure your battery might have 16 volts in it but that voltage is hollow-a good 12 volt battery charged with a normal charger will run a resistive or inductive load a lot longer than the battery with 16 volts in it.

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 04 2012 :  22:41:55  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Mag Interesting points for sure. I'm not letting go of the possibility of one thing; nor the other - trying to keep an open mind, is all. I find John's stuff very interesting, obviously if I didn't I wouldn't have sent him money, and spent months toying with it all, building new stuff.. I'm not done. I just find that he, and many others, really "claim" things and leave the viewer to say to themselves hmm. Ok. Show me what you mean. But then they don't. Or, they show you a lead up, result, with no common sense means of proof. So naturally they leave people skeptical, obviously they are not fools; they have kilowatt hour meters on the wall, they've been to school thus they know what caloriometry is, so why?

Now in this case, it's really vague. Because (as far as I know), no demo's period - it appears to be one of those "I'm gonna say this, so believe it" scenarios.

So I am curious what others have found, what they see happening before their eyes. Until this month, I have not charged one battery, from another... I've never seen the need to; with the one exception up at the yurt I'll use the big bank to say charge some AA's or a garden battery, quad battery, jump a truck...

It's just a claim out there, and I wonder if anyone has ever observed anything that would attest to what he is saying.

I think like this:

A. RESISTIVE HEAT ELEMENT CIRCUIT:
Current goes into a metal based conductor experiences some resistance, creates some heat, which in turn possibly changes the resistance a bit... a very small magnetic field exists around each wire but is fairly negligible.

B. INDUCTIVE CIRCUIT:
Current goes into a metal based conductor experiences some resistance. Current is encounters larger magnetic field effects. Current stops. Cycle starts over, current also sees some back emf.

In order to claim that the current available in a radiant charged battery is OK with A. and not B., what has, or can be done to show this? Not necessarily prove it, even, just show it in action? Without a demo, it's fairly meaningless. Now, coming from some absolute idiot, OK - who cares. We are talking about an audio amp building genius here. I don't doubt that if he were to take a test, he could score 140+. We are not talking about an idiot. So what gives.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on February 04 2012 22:46:44
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 04 2012 :  23:09:42  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kcarring-it has always been my belief that you cannot use the radiant charged battery on a resistive load as this is a continual draw on the battery,were an inductive load is a pulsed draw on the battery-so you are removing the charge in pulses-the same way you charged the battery in the first place.But the outcome is the same either way around-Why can you only use it to drive a certain load?and if this is the case,why would we want a battery that can only be used a certain way?
Sooooo many claim's and yet no proof to go with them-even after all these years.
Im currently haveing a discusion with rick on his latest window motor that i think fan posted on the vidio section.Rick claim's that it's only running on the 3 north magnets and not the three south magnets.It's only an ssg circuit he say's but you can spend more money and get the bipolar circuit so it will run on the 3 south magnets aswell-!!what a sale's pitch!! If the thing run's of north magnets it will also run of the south aswell-this we have done many time's.Credibility is fadeing fast for these bloke's in my camp

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twally67
Average Member



USA
251 Posts

Posted - February 05 2012 :  01:24:06  Show Profile Send twally67 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hey im not offended in the least way....lol
i just don't believe that there is a difference between self-running versus over-unity versus efficiency that's all..
and the SSG just wont cut it unless you redesign it from the ground up....
i have tried like kyle said flip batteries on an ssg and all the ones i have built have not (for the most part) run forever that is why i said there will always be a loss when you try it that way....and as far as the batteries being charged either way i think from what i have seen that charging via ssg (or same type of charging) is better than conventional..not faster not longer life but better in the fact it does it without hurting or shortening the life of a battery...that's all . we can debate this till the cows come home...lol . and as for john and rick i have stated i don't believe the garbage rick says i watch with amusement...lol. but john has always come from what is better for the battery and stuff like that...now as far as the ssg goes i think it needs help to get to the point of constant running with the most efficiency..
i think...that say taking an ssg output and running it say 50% straight to the charge battery and 50% to a cap dump to the charge would be better (see you can fill a cap faster than a battery) so you get resonant plus a pop of cap dump...would bring the battery up faster...now as far as flipping the batteries i would lower the voltage input (to safe the run battery)to the point charging can happen (and cap dump could allow that)and instead of 2 batteries i would have 4 banks so there is a rest period (i have tried that and it helps) now as far as the circuit i think there might be a better way of doing that too (think PWM with full frequency and pulse with control)with mosfets????? now the trigger can be a cap dump unto itself also.plus self starting a plus..????
just a thought...

sometimes meltdowns though kinda $$ make the best inspirations!!!

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twally67
Average Member



USA
251 Posts

Posted - February 05 2012 :  01:32:31  Show Profile Send twally67 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
and tinman that is a window motor with a bipolar (bedini cole) circuit that isn't the standard ssg...so that is like comparing apples to oranges....i have never built that type of device or circuit yet....lol


sometimes meltdowns though kinda $$ make the best inspirations!!!

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 05 2012 :  02:53:40  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok thanks for your input. I think I am beginning to understand "the claim". I think it comes down to the fact that the "claim" was not well stated. It was not made clear as to the "the claim": (as I think Twalley is trying to imply?)

1. You cannot swap the batteries if you wish to obtain an overunity attempt.

or...

2. You cannot swap the batteries. (Period)

Perhaps that's where the confusion lays. But thats what it is all about I guess, say too much, show too little, leave the crowd wanting more.

And Tinman, I see your point, loud and clear.. the whole thing is (to me) almost "disappointing". A lot of people don't understand where I personally am coming from. Obviously I like the Bedini technology, or I wouldn't be losing sleep to experiment with it! I can guarantee that much.

It's just that the more one learns, reads and listens, the more confusing, and basically "shaky" the whole thing gets, and sometimes it's rather disappointing that the technology was not just presented "as is" - but - maybe the part (as a 40 yr. old) I am neglecting to understand, or "work in" - is this is coming from a man who has worn a "free energy superhero cape" for a while. If your fans want to see you do a bicycle kick, cause your called Pele, you better deliver.

See, I had no idea Bedini was even into free energy, 8 years ago. But what I did know, was that a friend of mine (still) owns a set of mono blocks. I cannot tell you the number of nights we rocked out to that amp listening through a set of high end Infinity speakers. Unfuggin believable audio, the best I have ever heard, and I even heard it up against an amp worth 10X the money. Folks, that's a lot of cash for audio. Over 100K. So I had very high expectations when it was stated that when tuned properly, the SSG would run efficiently and overunity could be found, but it shows up in the batteries.

But anyway... getting back to what Twalley stated... "the charger takes care of the batteries".. I agree. I see huge potential their, it's not like my 20 T105's costed nothing. I only wish now the Rolls were not AGM's.

I very much like this solid state circuit and I am studying it carefully, and will continue along this same path for a while yet. So far I see no disadvantages (for my needs) in dropping the rotor, but I have to tell you, I watch Twalley's fans videos over and over, and man... that is some nice product. I just wish I had the patience he does, but I really don't think I do, my only fan attempt failed in an arthritic anger fit LOL. That is very, very useful stuff though, off grid applications of that are truly amazing! And pulse motors capable of becoming strong ceiling fans (perhaps Tinman's work) - so very useful. Anytime you can charge batteries with something you'd run anyway at a complete loss... wow. I can't believe bedini has not marketed a bolt-in 14" RV fan with a AA battery holder, or something. Do you guys realize what those things draw?! 2-5 amps. Typically!



~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - February 05 2012 :  03:22:24  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
lol i do kinda get the feeling Ricks tinker time may come in handy.

sorta seems like he hasn't tried everything yet and the second he makes a new motor variation hes got it up for sale, as well as the "upgrades".

at this point i suppose ignorance or lack of experience just goes hand in hand with possibly being taken advantage of.. however, if Rick has a small window motor thats basically just a loud fast spinning rotor, and people out there want to pay the high price for that so they can hook it to an ignition coil and light a CFL a little bit while charging a battery, hell i guess they are satisfied then. some could look at it like taking advantage, pretending its operating via some untold magic, using high rpm's and cfl lighting to impress buyers.. but if that actually does impress them and they want to pay for it then i guess theres no problem there lol.

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 05 2012 :  08:14:53  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Twally-i know it was the bipolar circuit and i wasnt comparing anything.All i said was disconect the battery and lets see it run on the cap.It was john's quote that he claimed it was now charging the battery-and thats cool,so lets see it run of the cap,but no that didnt happen.JB just says the reason he wont run it of the cap is because he like's to charge battery's lol-very bad excuse not to show it running of the cap.And as far as Rick go's -well he dosnt know sh_t from clay as can clearly be seen from his comments on his new window motor.hat bloke is pure salesman bluffing his way to gain proffit.

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