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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member


USA
1434 Posts

Posted - July 26 2013 :  19:02:30  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have a battery just given to me.
thought was to test the cells to determine condition.

What I read was to use the multimeter by placing positive to positive terminal, negitive to first cell
hopefully read around 2v

Then move positive to first cell negitive to the next cell and read again
hopefully reading 2v again and continue down the line

Seems like a good way to check the cells

First, do you, have you done this?
Second, if you get a negitive read, won't that mean a short between cells?

Found two cells reading negitive..
Believe I have two shorted cells..

If correct, then best this battery could ever do is 8v..??



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - July 26 2013 :  22:54:06  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

There is no one test to tell if the battery will take a charge but charge it. If you can get it to take a charge with a pulse charge then you might have a good chance. I have used the cell method you used BUT only on thick wall heavy duty batteries, because the smaller ones have a very thin plate and tissue paper separators that break or flat out crumble and cause a short right then. Pulse charge a battery first and let it tell you what it can do, your volt meter should be your best friend with one exception a meter that can tell you the resistance of the battery, that is worth its weight in gold for batteries. This is a link to the one I use and it works very well for the resistance of the battery and then you have to find out whats good and fair and the crap (The Good, The bad, and the Ugly) LOL
You must be logged in to see this link.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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IrishDave
Senior Member



Ireland
850 Posts

Posted - July 27 2013 :  09:24:38  Show Profile Send IrishDave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A cheaper way to go is with a Hydrometer.
It will show bad cells by the readings.

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - July 27 2013 :  10:41:16  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Dave

You are right with the Hydrometer BUT you have SLA batteries that you can't get a reading with that and if the battery is covered so that you can't get the caps off easily the analyzer is much faster and gives you a better overall look into the condition of the battery. It took me a year to spend the money but I have never regretted it. The only draw back is it only reads 12v so I read my T 105s in pairs. But it does not serve breakfast in bed.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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IrishDave
Senior Member



Ireland
850 Posts

Posted - July 27 2013 :  11:07:58  Show Profile Send IrishDave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Doug.

I have been pricing those Analyzers here as HF do not deliver to Europe. I have no doubt they are superior to what I am using lol.
I open up the caps on my bad SLA batteries to look for visual damage and for topping them up if needed, so the hydrometer does me until I get something better.
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - July 27 2013 :  13:11:48  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree Dave a hydrometer is a better way of reading what each cell is doing.
It was the negitive read that caught me, as it is the first time I've check a 'new to me' battery this way.
I do have a hydrometer and use it.

Doug's analyzer looks like the easiest way of checking the over-all condition.

I know now that I have 2 bad cells.
What good does that info do me??

My thought was that if I had some good read (like positive), it would make the effort worth while.
Again, it's that negative read that threw me..
Thought that may be a sign of not retrievable..

It's going on the SS SSG
Time will tell if that read means something..

Thanks Guys for the input!


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - July 30 2013 :  13:29:31  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

How goes the battery with the low voltage?? Did it come up with the pulse charge at all??

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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SKYPE bxx49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - July 30 2013 :  14:54:46  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, not yet..

My bigger (10T) is down and need to replace a few transistors, diodes...
Bottom line, going to just re-build fresh.
So I ran it on my 5T.

Not enough power to do anything.
I can push 2amps @ it, but need to be pushing more.
C20 on this one is about 4.5a

I thought I would still see some improvement..

With the wall wort, I can get it up to 8v's
Won't hold it, yet it get's there.
Hope was to do close to the same fairly quickly and re-test the bad cells.
I want to see that negative read change.






Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - September 14 2013 :  16:06:15  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm back on the 'problem child' and the 10T is re-built.

Still can't push harder than 2amps...

Before I blow all the transistors, I'll ask.

Lower the value on base resistors??

I'm running 47ohms resistance on the base.
100ohm on the pot.

Thinking of dropping to the 22ohm I used to run..
And push this child before I give up on her..



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - September 14 2013 :  16:21:33  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

What size wire do you have??? send a pic of your beast

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - September 15 2013 :  06:36:02  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's 22-23g, salvaged from my monitor stash

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - September 15 2013 :  08:36:30  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Your wire will only let 450 ma per strand so 4.5 amps max on a good day with a tail wind. 2 more questions what diodes and transistors. I would still like a pic so I can see your lay out.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - September 15 2013 :  10:26:38  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Diodes are 5401's and 2n3055's

I have not run this on one of the better batteries yet.
So it may 'all' have to do with the problem child.

2 more hours and it comes off and I'll put up one of the others I'm working on.



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - September 16 2013 :  10:20:51  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Both Steve and I went to 1N5408's they are good to 3 amps, you may have popped one and that takes out the transistors. I have seen this way more than once with Steve LOL because that is where he got his name from blowing them up.LOL

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - September 16 2013 :  16:33:04  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
May just be my case as well..

I've never trusted 'in circuit' testing, but..
Forward testing should be right and if I see reverse ohm'age..
Then I start dis-connecting and testing each transistor independently.

I also watch temp on the transistors.
If one or two are running lower than the others, I tend to question the lower ones. Are they working??

That is of course, if the higher temp are not greater than 10 degrees of ambient (or red..LOL).
Typically they're running 4-8 degrees above ambient temp.

So that leads to a question (of course it does..).

What do you do for a quick check on your transistors?








Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - September 16 2013 :  17:44:29  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Quick ( very crude ) check on transistors...

imagine that the transistor consists of two diodes ( back to back ) using ohms meter ( 200 ohm range is ideal ) check base to emitter and then base to collector if all is well both tests should give the same reading ( if it does not give a reading swop meter test leads over and repeat test )

Resistance reading should be within a couple of ohms of each other and just like diodes should only conduct in one direction

Has i said at the start it is a very crude rest but it will detect faulty ( leaky or open circuit junctions )

ron


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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - September 16 2013 :  18:50:08  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

With Steve it was usually either the first but most of the time it is the last in line or the closest to the charge battery. Saves some time to check them first. LOL good luck

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - September 17 2013 :  16:41:42  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To Doug: Have a feeling this 'problem child' battery is causing my issues.. I'm going to order some 5408's and switch out, just to be on the safe side side of things.

To RonO: Looking at the circuit, I don't see a bleed that would cause a reverse read on a ohm test at the transistor. I'm just not certain..

My intention is to pull 'all' out of circuit and test. Replace what is blown, and re-test to see if my theory is correct. If I'm correct, then forward read will happen, but reverse should not. If in-correct in my theory, then a bleed exists and my simple test doesn't work..

Or I have a blown diode... Which I will also test out in the process.

To Both (and all): Never ran a 10T before, so new territory for me.

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - September 17 2013 :  17:29:27  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Just like in car racing when you put the power to the ground you find your week link.. Just learn from it and I would still like a pic. please we can see more problems that way.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - October 23 2013 :  17:45:48  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Back to the 'Problem Child', not like I ever left it just back to full attention.

The battery just 'looks' too good to say no to.
All other batteries, run on the system, are reacting nicely...

This one is kicking my butt.

I just jumped the resistor to the pot to remove it from the equation and re-adjusted the pot to match, tuned down from there.

Seeing better voltage to the 'Problem Child' and seeing some amp drop..
Best voltage/amperage so far is 16.5v/2amps going in..
Hits the C20 rate for the battery..
Believe I need to hit this battery harder to get it to come around..

Am I wasting my time on this one??
Is this a candidate for a Epsom salt test?




Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - October 23 2013 :  18:44:35  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

How many C/D are on it??

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - October 23 2013 :  19:47:07  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
at this point 12 plus..
At different pushes.
Still attempting to find a good push to get it to react.

My cell to cell test is reading correct now.
Cell to cell is showing weaknest differently, as in, first better, then weaker as it goes down the line.
Good sign to me.

Just not getting a hold above 4v's..

The battery is all of 6 years old.
No sign of abuse, blown out sides, cracks and plates are not floating with debris..

Looks like she should be retrievable..

I'm about to go for a 2 day run on her and blast it.
Have it running at 2amps/16+v, best I can get right now.

I do see a small amp drop after hours of run.
Which should mean she's taking a charge..

Have a problem with a strong 2 day charge to kick it?






Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - October 23 2013 :  20:08:34  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

16.2 should be tops. Is the 2 amps a C20 rate for that battery and how far down are you discharging it??

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - October 24 2013 :  15:51:18  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
[quote]Originally posted by 49er

Hi ODR

16.2 should be tops. Is the 2 amps a C20 rate for that battery and how far down are you discharging it??

Sorry Doug, mis-understanding here..
16.2/2amps is what I can push through the SS SSG right now, tops.
At 24v I can do 250mA tops..
Resistance of this battery is high..

The battery reached a hold of 8v a few cycles back, but since then grows slowly from 2+v's..
Felt I was getting somewhere with it, then..

C20 on this battery is around 4.5amps
I can currently get no where near this...

The battery seems heavily sulfated.
The question was..

Any problem you can see with hitting this battery for a 2-3 day run?
Personally I'm not seeing a hurt.
Seems it's hurt enough already..



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - October 24 2013 :  16:56:35  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I may have answered my own question.

I lowered the voltage in to 12v and can get amperage up to 4.5

Being I've been stuck on wattage is wattage, I forgot that amperage value alone means a lot when recovering a battery.

I'm back to a 6v surface charge and saw the amperage drop since last post.
Just tuned it back up.

Houston we've made contact and there may be life out there! LOL..

The 'Problem Child' just got a kick in the butt.
Time will tell if it takes.


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - October 24 2013 :  17:00:19  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

The problem is once you hit the top level of voltage then your working on the part that is NOT sulfated and what I would call burn a hole in the plate. That is why you only charge no more than the C20 rate for the 20 hours. If it takes 8 hrs to hit 16.2 than this is telling me you need to hit it harder with the discharge, like 10 amps in this way you are burning the bottom half of the plates. Each time you run a complete C/D the time should show and its important you keep good records so you can see when you make an advancement with it. It may take 50 C/D times to get any where or its a door stop. LOL I have had many of them, but you need to say when enough is enough. The reason I say 50 C/D I have cleaned one to the point that it is a good battery for running a fan or lights and last for hours BUT full charge starts at 11.55 and stays and can not start a car but it is still good for other uses.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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