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TinMan
Advanced Member


4082 Posts

Posted - November 10 2012 :  05:43:40  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well here it is.Looks very interesting.
Unfortunatly the motor is shaged.Pistion is broken,and conrod is bent.
So what to do now?
Sugestions anyone?


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 10 2012 :  09:59:13  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well after a few hour's(more like 6)i have cleand up most of the generator side of thing's
So now what to do about a motor?-or how to set this thing up.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - November 10 2012 :  16:28:42  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

Looks like you've been very busy cleaning that unit up. Shame about the original engine

The box containing the inductor and relay is a voltage regulator. It controls the power feedback to the generator to maintain / regulate the output voltage. The two caps act as spark suppressors ( wired to the brushes and case/housing power return )

ron
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - November 10 2012 :  17:02:30  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

The following links may be of use :-



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ron
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 10 2012 :  20:33:02  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron
Yea i knew what the condensors were for-the same reason you have them on the old points ignition.
I asumed the inductor was some sort of current regulator,but wasnt sure as i believe the wire wound pot is also used to regulate the output current.
I believe it works in the way that you can adjust the resistance in the field windings that are acting in a bucking type setup.
I will get some ohm readings across the stator coil's today.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 11 2012 :  05:40:26  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well after discovering more things wrong with the old motor,we have gone for the new motor.
I just cut the end of the crank of the old motor and then machined a spiggot on the end of the new crank-and welded the two together.
Then i remachined the shaft straight to get it spot on true.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - November 11 2012 :  10:08:38  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

I have been trying to find my old book "Generator Secrets" reprinted by Linsday publication for more info for you. I do know that the Dodge type "G" or "GA" generator (dynamo) was a 4 stator / 4 brushes machine, if thats any use to you.

Yes , you are correct about the wire wound pot being used to feedback power to the stator coils to regulate the output power from the generator

ron

ron
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 11 2012 :  23:25:07  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron
Any info would be great
It is hard to tell how the coils are wound- and I won't be unwrapping them lol
From what I can tell, there is 3 windings on each coil
1- for the starter motor
2- for the generator windings
3- for the current adjusting coils
But all seem to go through the brushes into the rotor aswell
I didn't think the current adjusting coils would go through the rotor aswell

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - November 12 2012 :  03:10:28  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

That certainly sounds an intresting device you have there. An ideal "Lockeridge Device" conversion ?
I will keep searching for the "Generator Secrets" book , i have already checked my LeJay manual , it does have a few notes on additional overwindings on the stator coils for a high voltage output.

ron
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 12 2012 :  06:48:51  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol-lockridge device.
Now were thinking along the same line's Ron lol
But i have noticed that it dosnt load the motor up much at all,even when pulling 40 amp's at 17 volt's.
Now one i add the HHO cell in series with the battery-it puts even less force on the motor,but still charges the battery very fast.
I am just converting a video now with some scope shot's with the HHO cell hooked up.
You will notice that there is lots of high voltage spikes going in with the messy saw tooth wave form.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 12 2012 :  08:43:04  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just a question Ron-or anyone else that may know
If i have the capability of limiting the current via the pot,why would i need that current limiting inductor?
And what would that inductor do to any high voltage spikes that are comeing from the generator?
Also-would it have some sort of choke effect?

Now,another thing i was thinking was to do with the condensors on the brushes.Now i know these are to stop arking of the brushes from the back spike's when the coil becomes open.
Now what if i used some high amp diode's,and recaptured that back spike the same we do with our pulse system's?
Or maybe the condensor is already doing that in that it passes that charge to the next rotor winding when the brushes come into contact with it.

In reguards to the lockridge device-were to find some info on it that dosnt bare the name bedini or lindermann?
After watching JB's video-it seems he realy has no idea as to how it worked or was hooked up.
Im guessing if he did-it would have been world new's lol.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - November 12 2012 :  09:51:35  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

The inductor could be used to prevent / slow down inrush current , you mentioned on of the winding was used as a starter motor , is it in that circuit ?

ron
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 13 2012 :  04:48:47  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron
I have just got home from work,but as soon as i finish my coffee i will go and try to draw some sort of wireing diagram-as best as i can follow the wire's
But i have no idea as to how they are wound inside the stator coil's
What is strange is that all the positive's seem to be joined,and the negative's seem to be isolated from each other???

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - November 13 2012 :  05:18:05  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

Because of its age could it be that it's due to the fact that positive earth was used in vehicles at that time ?

ron
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 13 2012 :  07:53:47  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron
No it's defently negative ground,But it is wired up in a most unusual way-im still trying to get my head around the wireing???
Im trying to draw it out now with windows paint lol-just so as it's clear-but i must be looking at something wrong here,as it all seems to be one big short between the 3 winding's?

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 13 2012 :  08:58:20  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well this is about the best i can do-messy but you should be able to follow it
I have no idea as to how the windings are set out in the coils.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - November 13 2012 :  16:33:03  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

I see what you mean !

Firstly , could the " unknown box " be a sort of automatic cutout switch ?

Ok , let's look at a typical 3 brush generator ( since 2 of the brushes are common to ground)

One of the two insulated brushes would be connected to the battery "live" ( with respect to the grounded terminal ), this would also be the load takeoff terminal.

The remaining brush would be connected to one terminal of the field coil ( or coils ). The other wire from the field coil (s) would be connected to ground via a low ohm rheostat.

I'm going to print out your drawing and sit down and have a think.

ron


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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 13 2012 :  23:01:42  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was thinking that it could be a large diode?
Did they have diodes back in the 40's ?

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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n/a
deleted



2079 Posts

Posted - November 13 2012 :  23:22:16  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
that is one impressive generator, i agree with ya, if they could build them that good back then, then why not now?


Skype user name: SD3Txxx
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - November 14 2012 :  03:06:51  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

They had "metal" rectifiers ( looked like a series of square or round metal plates with a small spacer between each one ). These were "hugh" compared to what we have now ( amp per amp rating )

ron
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 14 2012 :  08:17:34  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi SD
Yes it would seem we have gone backwards when it comes to this sort of thing.
It seems to be very efficient at converting rotational torque into power.

Ron-the reason i asked if it could be a diode is-when drawing a low load(low amp's)that magnetic coil inductor switch thingy is open,but power still go's to the battery.
Then at about 5 amp's,the big electromagnetic switch closes to allow more current to pass.
So it seems that any thing under 5 amps is passed through that little box.
Then when i turn the pot up so as the output is above 5 amp's-that big relay closes,and most of the current is passed through that.
Could it maybe be a big resistor?
I think i might remove it and do a few check's on it-like an ohm reading across it,and also a diode test with the DMM.

Now that large relay also seems to serve another purpose.It remains open when starting.This would be to stop the current going to the generator coils when the start buton is pushed and current flows to the start winding's
I have also found that the start windings also produce 16 volts at low rpm once the motor is running.
If i disconect the charge wire to the battery and push the start button while the motor is running-it will also charge the battery quite fast.

The more i play around with this generator,the more things i find lol.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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n/a
deleted



2079 Posts

Posted - November 16 2012 :  19:49:59  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
from what you said about all the positives being hooked together that sounds just like a 3phase hook up in delta,you get same current as Star configuration but more amps. When will tinman show the contents of the "unkown box" opening soon at a theater near you!


Skype user name: SD3Txxx
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 17 2012 :  07:06:36  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi SD
The first video had the contents of the box lol.
It will be it's first run on HHO tomorow,as i have just finished my dry cell.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 22 2012 :  09:19:05  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi to all those that may read this thread
I have moved this setup over to the HHO thread-if you wish to follow my experiments with this generator.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - November 22 2012 :  17:43:08  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

I still have not been able to locate my copy of "Generator Secrets" , i'm sure it had a section on 4 brush generators.

The search continues !

ron
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - November 22 2012 :  20:03:20  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ron_o I think I know the book. Well... maybe...

You must be logged in to see this link.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 22 2012 :  23:23:47  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron
Well I hope you find it, sounds like it may have some answers for us
Kyle- I will check out that link as soon as I get home from work- cheers

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - November 23 2012 :  03:06:43  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kyle

It's a much older book that only/mainly deals with dynamos , written befor alternators ( as we now now them.
Thanks anyway.

ron
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - December 04 2012 :  16:41:54  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A little on the winding arrangment of the rotor


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 05 2012 :  18:14:40  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

On what could be described as the relay coil , is there another winding underneath the heavy gauge winding ?

I still have not found my "Generator Secrets " book , but i do have some info on armature winding connection . I will get it scanned and sent to you.

ron
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - December 06 2012 :  05:24:39  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron,and thanks for that.
The relay coil is only 2 runs of the heavy gauge wire.
The reason that relay is there is to stop the current looping back to the battery when trying to start it.
Once the engine starts and current starts to be produced by the generator,this relay switches on and sends the current from the generator side to the battery.

So what i know about it so far is that it is a wave wound rotor,and a shunt type generator with reostat to adjust the strength of the magnetic fields.

What i dont know is why it has an odd number of segments on the armature???
Every motor or generator i know of have an even number of segments in the armature.
And the little unknown silver box that is bridged between the inductor and relay ,finaly got the better of me-and i removed it from the box.
After testing with a DMM on ohm's,diode,volts and capacitance-i found out that it is actualy a 15nf cap.
Now this makes sence when you look at how the system is setup.
swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 06 2012 :  18:40:46  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

The odd number of contacts allows the end of the last winding to be connected to the start of the first winding.

Reason for asking if additional winding on relay :- could not see how relay coil became energised , no direct connection

ron
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - December 07 2012 :  06:09:29  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron
I believe the relay become's energised by the (what we now know to be)cap that is bridged accross the inductor and relay.
Once the relay is pulled on,it then takes over the current output delivery to the load.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 07 2012 :  15:49:09  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

Sorry , but i cannot see how that would be achieved ( as shown ) Does a magnetic "link" exist between the large inductor and the relay core ?

ron
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - December 08 2012 :  05:50:20  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron
I will have to look into this,as im not quite sure how this would work either???
Seems as though it wouldnt ,as the relay would still be an open circuit to start with.
Ok-im off to the shed to check this out.
All i know is that it dose work--some how?

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 08 2012 :  16:58:18  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

Thanks for checking. I'm still searching for my book and whilst doing so i came across a schematic for a voltage regulator which used a two coil ( on thick winding , wound over a coil consisting of many turns of fine wire ) as i understand it the thin winding is pulse energised initially ( , a large current then flows through the thick wire winding ( this current then maintains the relay in the closed position ) . This combination sort of acts like a "no volt release" switch arrangement.

If you unit did have this twin coil arrangement , is it possible that the capacitor provides the initial voltage pulse ?

ron
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - December 09 2012 :  18:32:52  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron
I completly removed that relay,and there is no second wire.
It has only the one large wire winding(2 layers)on it,and this remains open until the generator starts to operate.
So now im going to spend my time trying to work out as to how the relay switches on??? as it is just an open circuit until it is closed.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 10 2012 :  20:34:01  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

Thanks again for checking , it's really quite a mystery. Could it be as i suggested previously magnetic flux linkage from the large inductor ?

ron
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - December 11 2012 :  04:53:25  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Im not sure about that Ron-it would have to be a strong magnetic field from the inductor to do so.
But here is some more confusion for you.The large inductor wouldnt have any current passing through it until the relay was closed-thus no magnetic field to start with?

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 11 2012 :  17:55:17  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

Your right , i'm at a loss and obviously in need of a better pair of reading glasses , lol

This is " bugging" me now . When you examined the relay coil for a second coil did you check if the coil is electrically isolated fron the relay body ?

ron

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - December 12 2012 :  00:04:06  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron
The coil and switch points are isolated from ground
I am at the point as to which I can't see how the relay developed any sort of current build up due to it being open circuit
Tonight I will disasble again and keep looking until I have an answer

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - December 12 2012 :  09:48:53  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Guys
I might be off base here but I keep coming back to a mechanical voltage regulator where you are in control of half of it with the pot thus eleminating the need for a second coil. It looks like 1/2 of an old style 6v regulator to me.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - December 12 2012 :  23:28:47  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm
The relay switches of when the motor isn't running
This stops current flow into the generator from the battery while not in use
We are trying to work out how the relay closes to start with, as it is an open circuit until it is closed
So the question is, how is a magnetic field created within an inductor that is open circuit. ?

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - December 13 2012 :  00:08:02  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The old 6v systems the regulator/generator needed to be polarized to work properly. Once polarized they would retain enough magnetic field to produce 2-3 volts static not even hooked up. Your generator is around the same time line so it makes some sense. Need to look back through this thread. Not tonight to tired. LOL

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus

Edited by - msmjr on December 13 2012 00:25:26
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - December 13 2012 :  00:27:00  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here maybe this will spark an idea. LOL Pun intended.

You must be logged in to see this link.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - December 13 2012 :  05:07:19  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm
Yes the generator will fire up without being excited first.If i use the pull start and have the start batter disconected-the generator will still function as normal.
This is due to the residual magnetism in the rotor.
But what were trying to work out is how dose an electromagnetic relay switch on when one side of the coil winding is open?
I will find the answer one way or another lol.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 16 2012 :  16:18:03  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

This link describes 4 brush dynamo setup + dynamo wiring.

You must be logged in to see this link.

ron
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - December 17 2012 :  18:19:03  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron
That is a preaty good read.
I was very interested in the amplidine setup in there-1 watt in for 10 000 watts out,driven by a prime mover ofcourse.But none the less-a very nice setup.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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