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kcarring
Moderator


Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - December 29 2011 :  03:01:36  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd like to hear your guys' view on the various effects of charging batteries with strictly inductive spikes (absolutely minimizing current) vs. passing current... I'm still a bit confused on that. I have bugged the Magneticitist a fair bit on this topic... hate to do so, even more.. but to this day.. there seems to be many "camps" on the pro's and cons of using one approach versus the next. For example Bedini has stated that when charging with radiant energy (myself I prefer to call this inductive spike charging as I am not to rest on the concept of there even being such a thing - but that's beside the point) the batteries in the SSG cannot be reversed, and the charge received is not suitable for inductive loads. Rick, has also mentioned there being issues with the radiant charge interfering with online inverters. Over at EF, there seems to be a split audience, many different opinions / approaches / beliefs.

What are your thoughts and or your approaches techniques to overcoming such obstacles.

It would seem that an approach that left one with a battery capable of any load type scenario would have it's benefits.

Thanks for your input.

Happy New Year!

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USA
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - December 30 2011 :  15:29:37  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
you pretty much already know my opinion.. i dont intend on shooting any other theories down, but i personally look at the "radiant" the same way as you.. an inductive collapse.. this collapse of course can contort in many ways but i literally translate it to being the actual magnetic current that was previously induced in the coil.. aside from that, by pushing this collapse at the right magnitude and frequency we can get some awesome charging from big to small batteries.. as far as the "radiant" aspect.. well i also have observed any voltage "radiates" through the atmosphere.. it just becomes somewhat more noticeable at the higher voltages and frequencies..

i still struggle with the concept of the "radiant" needing to be "converted" via a capacitor first also.. i mean thats what your charge battery is doing, serving as the capacitance to capture these spikes. using an actual capacitor first is like using a different battery with MUCH less capacitance, so what is this capacitor doing that the battery isnt?

another thing for me is actually identifying the differences between an inductive collapse, or what we call these radiant spikes, versus normal transformer induction. the main difference being when u go from a primary to secondary, the secondary has a certain impedance and this is helping to translate the wave according to voltage and current (turn, thickness), while just the plain collapse in a single coil can be said to be sending its "secondary" energy right back into the primary again, producing roughly the same energy but in a high voltage form due to the lines cut in the flux (turns).

when it comes to testing, ive tried a lot of setups using just the inductive collapse from the single run wire, compared to using the the rectified AC from a flyback winding or "secondary" of some sort. Bedini has a trifilar using the same premise, a flyback winding doing much of the charging via a cap dump.. so at this point i cant really tell much of a difference..

some other things i want to mention.. regarding the h wave and other particular things that encouraged to locate in a Bedinis operation, lets take a fan bedini for example.. when this is tuned properly, the "radiant" can be seen in the neon in the form of a flicker.. this transient is making its way to the gas erratically but its there. that is to say we have it tuned so a single pulse is firing, and giving off a tiny bit of high voltage spike. while this DOES charge a battery, i have never been able to let myself tune the motor that way.. seems like i get much better results tuning it so there is more chopping going on, a higher frequency, more pulses meaning a little self oscillation governed by the rotor magnets, as well as a higher voltage, AND the neon becoming brighter. the same can be said with many solid state circuits, they are self oscillating and putting out a much higher degree of these "spikes" as opposed to lets say that bedini fan that was tuned to only the flicker.

having said that ive made it my mission to simply try to create not only transformers that can yield the most magnetic field possible, and thus collapse, but generally just trying to get the most "beefy" pulses as i can , simply because anything less seems to not want to charge any batteries for me in a reasonable amount of time. while i have some setups that im sure could be left to operate for days and days and have the end result be efficient, i honestly just dont want to wait that long hehe

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]

Edited by - Magneticitist on December 30 2011 15:33:03
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - January 02 2012 :  21:23:12  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great summary Ryan :) Thanks for the input. The other day, I thoroughly took apart, examined, and tested in real time, one of my MPPT solar chargers. As folks properly understand, in MPPT, it is really just a "smart" buck converter. What i was surprised to see though, is,... when the coil releases it's energy... there goes the spike to.

And with all due respect to all those involved in their own projects, etc., their own findings and beliefs --> I don't buy into the concept of radiant energy as determined by the Bedini circuit. But it certainly is a novel charging system and can offer some very real benefits and interesting twists; no doubt! I am interested though, when I do, in fact see, on a scope: the same application, the same wave, and basically almost the same circuit, being used elsewhere, with no talk or inference to radiant, or free energy. The MPPT charger was one, and so is an old school AC doorbell circuit.
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - January 03 2012 :  04:43:18  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Guys-what i will say first is that JB's pulse systems do what he claims-and thats charge and condition batterys to hold a greater charge.However i cannot see any thing out of the ordinary with this system. Even the ballest out of a fluro light works in the same way-gives a high voltage output when the field around the core collapses.I cannot see anymore than a single wire transformer at work here.The simple reason we get a high voltage spike from a coil when it is switched off is because an electro magnetic field collapses a lot faster than we can create it until such time as we add a resistance to it.Depending on the value of that resistance will determond the voltage from the kickback of the coil.If we were infact pulling in extra energy from the enviroment,would we not end up with more than we started with?I have built many pulse motors-more than i have posted,but the best i could do was.7 of a ma at 12 volts with my 5 inch rotor.Now this is preaty good-i mean show me any 12 volt dc motor that will run just itself on 700 micro amps little loan a 5 inch rotor aswell,but still short of the miricle mile.There are so many people that have built pulse motors and solid state pulse generators,and many with great engineering skills-but im still yet to see a self runner !!on caps!!that is not fake.
So my stance on this is-yes,its a good way to rejuvinate batterys and it dose put out a high voltage-but even at 100% eficiency its still same watts out as you put in includeing mechanical rotation of the rotor.
How ever-i believe that a pulse motor that could recover say only 80% of its consumed current,driving a generator of a particular setup could achieve cop>This generator would only have to generate that extra 31% to get past the thresh hold of cop.As you would have seen in one of my vidio's that i have a generator system were as the lens effect actualy can help rather than hinder to produce power.Now that i know that it works its just a mater of getting the right configuration-which im working on at the moment.
So for this to work we use ,guess what-JB's pulse motor setup or something similar as it wont work with a normal ac or dc motor.
But anyway-im with Mag and Kcarring on this,and have been for some time.But each to there own as nobody is wrong in there belief's--this is just my take on it.

Remember-when you make a mistake you have just learned how not to do it.This only brings you one step closser to success.The only way to fail is to never try>>>>TinMan<<<<
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twally67
Average Member



USA
251 Posts

Posted - January 03 2012 :  11:09:30  Show Profile Send twally67 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
the only advantage i see in radiant charging is that it doesn't seem to boil the battery not like conventional charging does (cause you aren't shoving current into the battery) and that is a good plus cause it helps the battery live a long and productive life...now a more conventional state of charging (not totally normal) is cap pulse charging from a radiant source the current is in microfarad and not as harmful as conventional . where as radiant only seems to bring the battery to a high or full voltage level (but dose not quite seem to fill the battery in amps)where as cap pulsing fills the battery in amps or deep cycle charging first then voltage level seem to be second then why not a hybrid of both where the radiant does it work then cap pulsing comes in between the radiant pulses .....see i kinda see a battery as having 2 different forms (kinda close cousins ) of energy..1st being voltage the second being the deep cycle energy (current or amps) see you can have a battery that has or shows full voltage (like 12.5 or higher) but the minute you apply a load it falls flat and no current can be drawn out,and then there is a battery that has less than a full voltage charge (12.4 or less) that can supply full amps to a load... i have seen both types of battery examples. now i know you are all going to say volts and amps are tied together but i always see them as twins....close in type but slightly different personalities...oh and don't forget that radiant charging i doesn't only charge a battery but also changes its capacity (in amp hours)too where it cleans up the plates and expands them in density to hold a more deep cycle charge..

sometimes meltdowns though kinda $$ make the best inspirations!!!

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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - January 03 2012 :  11:44:41  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i have to agree with ALL statements made in this thread.. i share TinMan's outlook on pulse motors because i have never really considered the collapse being the potential 100% energy recycling. sure we can get up to around 70-80%, or maybe more, but not the entire 100,, not in my opinion. this extra energy CAN indeed come from the generator though! but as always, its that DARN lenz thats in the way, and always has been. so im looking forward to what TinMan comes up with.. seems to be mathematically the ability for over 100% efficiency as always been there but lenz utterly destroys this when it comes into play. think the pulse circuits real value is being a motor driver that has the ability to be more efficient than any other generator drive as long as lenz is defeated.

to disbelieve in any magical "radiant" being truly genuine is not dismissing the possibility of overunity. i tend to believe its very possible just not in the ways ive seen it "displayed" by certain individuals in the Bedini camp.

regarding the reversibility of the batteries, i will say maybe the reason i have no problem reversing them is because any time i really "charging" a battery with pulsed DC, im feeding it no less than around 100mA, so there is indeed a decent amount of current.. maybe if i charged a batt with STRICTLY the "radiant" as to totally limit all possible current, SURE i guess the battery will charge in a couple weeks or so, and maybe after that point it will not be reversible. but far as i know when feeding the little current that i am they are charging fairly "normally"

and i agree with Twally.. if i can charge a batt with only 100mA or so, thats much better than killing the plates with 10A or something.. at the same time we can drive the charge batt to over 13v with just the 12v input potential. not only that i can take the same circuit id charge a 12v with and charge ANY other size battery. (and FIX them) to me thats very valuable. the fact that they even sell batteries not intended for recharging is CRAZY! such a scam. the day i got my first pulse motor working good i stopped buying batteries (unless they were dollar store test batts =)
way too many uses.. we have batteries in our remotes, cell phones, car keys, power tools, cameras etc.. the idea of constantly buying these over and over again makes me want to do the palm face-plant. also buying a separate piece of charging equipment for all these different types of batteries.. crazy

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]

Edited by - Magneticitist on January 03 2012 11:47:22
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twally67
Average Member



USA
251 Posts

Posted - January 03 2012 :  17:23:07  Show Profile Send twally67 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK here is the secret to the whole SSG and john's secret......listening??????good.....here it is...
1st thing john says never run a load on the batteries more that a C20 rate and not to drop the voltage no more than 2 volts from the resting voltage(in plain #s is say a 12 volt battery (witch is actually 13.6 when its fully charged) shouldn't be run below 11.6 ...right????? ....now OK if you do that then you don't hurt the battery in any way doing it also doesn't warp or short the battery or lower the battery capacity to the point that cant be recovered on its own to about 90% of its resting voltage on its own without charging just resting..now the ssg with just a radiant pulse can replenish the batteries to full or near full capacity without a problem....now doing this keep the battery well conditioned and live a long and fruitful life...now we have the Tesla (the reason i call it Tesla and not johns is because with no disrespect Tesla did it first and john found a solid state way of reproducing what Tesla did in his time)1 wire pulse method i think we are missing one thing ?????? a good way to rotate the batteries.... you need 4 batteries and rotate them in a way that gives the batteries time to rest between cycles ....IE run/rest/charge/rest....REPEAT!!! that would be the best way to have the batteries work without killing the batteries......just like all things that handle stress it need rest between working modes (charging and running a load is work to a battery) in order for the thing that is having the stress applied to it handle it in a more balanced way.....and if we apply those rules to the battery then it would last a lifetime....
ok here should be the rules:::
1 never apply a load more than the C20 rate of your battery
2 never load your battery (run ) more than 2 volts beyond its resting voltage at a full charge
3 rotate your battery in a way so you have equal rest periods between each work cycle (charge and run)
now with the rules there then all that need to happen is to build an ssg that doesn't(when adjusted to its sweet spot)draw more than the supply's C20 rate (under is better)and you never draw (lets say you use a 12 volt battery when full measure the voltage (new battery would be better) at rest witch should be 13.5 volts and you don't run it below 11.6) more than 2 volts from its resting full voltage and rotate them when the charge battery hits a predetermine voltage(OK lets say you have 12 volt battery then i would end charging when your meter hits 14.5 volts that should rest it at 13.6 volts) by a combo of radiant and cap pulse charging and rotate in a way that doesn't stop the device and gives the batteries a rest between cycles.then this should be sufficient to work till the bearings fall off...lol

that is the way from what i have seen that john does what he does when it comes to the devices he shows and following all the rules he has said himself...

sometimes meltdowns though kinda $$ make the best inspirations!!!

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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - January 03 2012 :  19:07:35  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
^ u are pretty much on the money with what i have been thinking recently about all this feedback looping and such.. i mean TIME is a major factor in everything.. i think Bedini doesnt so much like working with single batteries for the same reason. we are trying to send something back into a capacitance, that literally JUST sent out some current. theres no rest for the battery when clearly a battery DOES show changes during rest. so i agree if we can just develop a healthy cycling method with several batteries rather than one or two we would probably be doing closer to how were "supposed" to.

one thing im still learning about though is the cell potential of these SLA's.. i have read online these cells are pretty much never above a 2v potential.. ive read 1.9 and 2.1 somewhere in that region but no higher. so the fact that we can get 13v+ standing in a battery doesnt make sense to me... i had bought a 7Ah SLA a while back and out of the box it was at 12.6v and according to the battery that was the nominal resting voltage. after some time charging the battery through many cycles it does indeed want to rest at 13.3 now.. it would want to rest at no higher than 12.8 before i charged the hell out of it many times. so the question for me is are these plates coming from the factory "crappy"?(haha at language filter) or what is it about this charging that literally increases the potential of these plates.. and im sure Twally can vouch this 13v+ is not just a "floating" or "deceiving" voltage.. it will actually run a load for a long long time before it actually drops below 13v.. really the only batteries i cant do this with are the cheap alkalines.

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]

Edited by - Magneticitist on January 03 2012 19:09:01
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twally67
Average Member



USA
251 Posts

Posted - January 03 2012 :  19:49:54  Show Profile Send twally67 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well you would have to look at the video i posted on here about battery forming and what happens to the plates in a lead acid battery.... it seems (and i aint going to cut one open to find out...lol) that john made a single cell battery out of a mason jar with rolled up lead and zinc plate and showed what the difference is between conventional and radiant charges do the the plates..when a battery is intentionally formed at the plant the plates are shocked into life and start the electrical/chemical reaction and so call form the plates it creates a coating on them (the plates) that is a crystal structure on them and it is large and rough in appearance but when you take it and radiantly charge and drain and charge them repeatedly over time the same crystalline structure grows on the plates but smaller and more defined and that is where the gain in capacitance comes from...think of the crystalline coating as a form of virtual battery within a battery kinda filling in the defects in the plates and making the plates more eclectically denser and therefor hold a larger capacitance (i say capacitance because weather its a gain in voltage or current capacitance covers all of that)
here is the video.......pay attention to the 2 jars he shows that have just metal strips in them and look closely...



sometimes meltdowns though kinda $$ make the best inspirations!!!

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - January 04 2012 :  09:08:48  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I once heard it explained like this.Picture your plates in your battery to be like a honeycomb wall were each hole(millions of them)holds a small amount of charge.On initial charge say 1 in every 1000 are blocked off.The high voltage spikes slowly unblock these holes allowing each plate to hold more charge.Im preaty sure it was ron cole that explained it like this.

Remember-when you make a mistake you have just learned how not to do it.This only brings you one step closser to success.The only way to fail is to never try>>>>TinMan<<<<
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 04 2012 :  11:38:56  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ALL

I think twally has it right with batteries,in all my batteries that I have charged it has always come down to how many amps can you take out of a battery in a C20 discharge rate. So capacity is the last line of measurement and the front line is how mush did you put in. In between is how well your unit pumps the free energy into the battery. If you charge with conventional charge first as a base then every thing is the way you change the battery to except a greater charge and that is a measurable change that is real with usable power and every time you recharge it gets better so it not just a one time charge. IMHO

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - January 08 2012 :  23:29:50  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by twally67
here is the video.......pay attention to the 2 jars he shows that have just metal strips in them and look closely...
sometimes meltdowns though kinda $$ make the best inspirations!!!
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The thing that bothers me about this video is, it is purely qualitative, not quantitative - in that - John puts some unknown amount of energy in, and draws some unknown amount of energy out... there is no watt meter on the ingoing, no watt meter on the outgoing. All we know is that X volts at X amps (initially) goes in, until such a time that you see electrolysis form, which is the point he (Rick actually) states the battery cell "is charged". Then, a bulb of unknown load characteristics is attached, and John explains that "you should get out, what you put in" And so we are shown you get 3X the runtime as the input time.

Last time I checked, this is extremely unscientific and completely bogus, I'm sorry - either I am missing the point completely or the video is intended for complete idiots who cannot calculate power, and would not expect the demonstration to, either...

*shrug*

Edited by - kcarring on January 08 2012 23:30:49
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twally67
Average Member



USA
251 Posts

Posted - January 08 2012 :  23:39:22  Show Profile Send twally67 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
kyle i was referring to the difference between what happens to the plates inside a battery when conventional charging and radiant as to the crystalline structure that forms on the plates... that business with the light to me wasn't nothing more than proving alum mixture works like a nicad battery thats all.....the light part i wasn't impressed with either.....

sometimes meltdowns though kinda $$ make the best inspirations!!!

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - January 08 2012 :  23:56:41  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fair enough point well taken... Sulfation is WHY a battery works, at all... and I guess it just annoys me when a very intelligent individual such as himself throws in lots of little "side shows" and by this I mean... to say... if the point of the demo was inductive spike charging differences, why would he not mention that a lead acid battery actually NEEDS sulphation to occur (similar metals) to even function, and that the point of the spike charging is to create a smaller sulphate particle base, larger surface area, and thus higher capacity, less chance of permanent irreversable sulfation -- he forgoes that and confuses the beginner with mathless demos that lead the ignorant to believe something magic is POSSIBLY occurring. It's not. Furthermore, no mention of the fact any lead acid battery requires an equalization charge approximately every 10 cycles, which few people do, to desulphate. No mention of that, ever, either. To me, it's bait and switch. I see it no different than when he loads a bedini motor down, and says "look, it actually draws less current" - of course it draws less current, it's switching less often, the duty cycle lowers, thus the RMS current drops. It fools people, and he knows it does. And I do too, because I was one of them for a while.

Lately, I have been playing a lot with Sucahoyos circuit, and have experimented with a variant between his, and this one:

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This article points out some good information (and is conveniently free of any bogus claims too). About the standing resonant frequency of battery itself.

I keep thinking that a solid state circuit SHOULD in fact be able to adjust better than a 555 timed circuit, or a rotor based circuit. I tend to believe that it is, in fact the resonant "ringing" as outlined in this article that truly does the work of desulphation. And it stands to reason that it should change, the frequency, as the battery changes and not be constant...

What are your experiences with rotor speed vs. self oscillation speed, do you find your circuit self adjusts? I'll bet John talks about that, but frankly I can't watch his videos anymore. While he is an undoubtedly intelligent guy, he is a bit of a trickster too, and I find that very annoying. I wonder though, because I have often found that batteries will rejuvenate to a point, but then stop... of course, never knowing the history of them, doesn't make it any easier.

Edited by - kcarring on January 09 2012 00:37:29
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - January 09 2012 :  09:49:59  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yes the sulfate is part of the chemical requirement of the SLA to work, being that this sulfate is what turns back into lead and lead oxide. it is indeed confusing because where is the line between "proper" sulfation and a deteriorated one that will no longer accept the chemical reaction from the same input current and voltage. i suppose its just that over time when there is no electrolyte present this sulfate becomes like cake coating the plates actually destroying any real conductivity between the cells, or reducing their capacitance until more plate surface area is cleared with the pulses. the question then is, does the HV really "knock" the sulfate loose? or is it just causing the chemical reaction necessary to charge the battery, but at a very slow rate compared to traditional current.

i wanted to post a citation from the PDF article that Kyle just posted i thought was of significance. You must be logged in to see this link.

the author writes:
"Resonant Frequency..
The technique used in this circuit relies on a little known
aspect of lead-acid batteries. They possess what is
called a "resonant frequency," at a surprisingly high
frequency. The frequency is dependent on various
physical details of the battery's construction, but it is on
the order of 2 to 6 megahertz, which is in the low
ranges of the shortwave radio bands."

i found this very interesting since i had previously thought this frequency was actually much lower.

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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fan1701
Average Member



USA
243 Posts

Posted - January 09 2012 :  12:26:07  Show Profile Send fan1701 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is a different process than standard charging. If it is not then we wouldn't need to use pulsed DC to undo the damage caused by forcing current in them causing heat and the eventual death of the battery. The battery becomes a capacitor in a tank circuit when charged with a Bedini type system. Tuning is a function of hitting a resonant frequency or some 1/4 , 1/2 wave whatever between the secondary coil and the battery. Then you get nice charging caused by the resonant circuit effect. Current in the coil and high voltage at the battery. Otherwise your just passing current and that doesn't work well at all with Bedini type units. Thats one reason why the size of the wheel is important and the number of magnets. Smaller units have much more trouble charging for this reason.

It is the same in the Meyer's tube cell system. That is why he doesn't want current in the cell.

al

* Not following the manufacturer recommended specs * ON PURPOSE!
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - January 16 2012 :  07:24:33  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
MAg;

The article goes on to say the circuit operates at about 1 KHZ, so perhaps its all about being in a harmonic, possibly without requirement of hitting the actual resonant frequency. If I can establish a perfect hamarmonic of a symbol, with my bass guitar... that sucker is gonna rattle like no tomorrow. Slide up a couple of semitones and it barely moves.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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et2uscg
New Member



USA
18 Posts

Posted - January 20 2012 :  08:00:49  Show Profile  Visit et2uscg's Homepage Send et2uscg a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey guys, sorry for jumping in late on this topic.
I have a cement battery with copper and aluminum , anode and cathode.
I have radiantly charged it with around 2mhz and the battery will show 2.7 volts with minimal current ex: micro amps. I then apply a dc voltage from a power supply for approximately 20 seconds and then check the current on the batter and it shows 20 to 40 milliamps. But of course the cement battery seems to work like a capacitor so this post might be null and void in the topic.
let me know thanks.
et2uscg
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 21 2012 :  09:56:34  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi et

Why don't you start a new thread here in the battery info and post a pic or two of it and we will see if we can help you OR you will help us. LOL Also tell us some of what you did to get to the point you are now.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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Edited by - 49er on January 21 2012 09:57:49
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - January 23 2012 :  13:51:42  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you folks for this thread!
A few of my questions have been answered according to what I'm seeing.

Of course other answers are here that I haven't even thought of the questions yet...
Remember me, I'm the guy holding the rope dragging behind the pick-up.
Hoping to at some point work my up to riding in the back (or standing on the bumper holding on to the tailgate).

Twally said;
i kinda see a battery as having 2 different forms (kinda close cousins ) of energy..1st being voltage the second being the deep cycle energy (current or amps) see you can have a battery that has or shows full voltage (like 12.5 or higher) but the minute you apply a load it falls flat and no current can be drawn out,and then there is a battery that has less than a full voltage charge (12.4 or less) that can supply full amps to a load... i have seen both types of battery examples.

This is where am...
I'm running another cycle now.
Run battery before the run read 12.2v.
Once the rotor started jumped down to 11.85 and maintained.
Though it charged to 14.25v, rested 24hrs to 12.2v, the actual (as I now believe) power is really at 11.85.

I'm now tracking this reading as well to see how it compares to the resting voltage.
I'd love to use the 11.85 to calculate my input (usage) from, being I believe it to be the actual run voltage.


Tell me if I'm close and should still hang on to the rope.
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fan1701
Average Member



USA
243 Posts

Posted - January 23 2012 :  14:10:30  Show Profile Send fan1701 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR, sounds like your run battery is sulfated. Might be time to start cycling it as the charge battery. If its a SLA it may be headed for the heap.

al

* Not following the manufacturer recommended specs * ON PURPOSE!
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 23 2012 :  16:38:04  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Please tell us what the battery is either CCA or AH of the battery and what you have done to it so far??

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  08:13:47  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's my new way of tracking my readings.
Started this yesterday;


Battery Charging Tests

Notes; 24 hr rest = time from end of run to time of reading
Run Settle = where the voltage is steady @ beginning of run cycle (reaches within seconds)

Battery History;
Die-Hard 230cca / SLA This battery is 6 years old, retired from service 2 years ago. Was at 11.98v off the shelf, but Run Settled at 7.98v

Weker 205ah / SLA I have 2 of these running my UPS. They are 4+ years old and this year stopped returning to full charge

Weker 230cca / SLA This battery is 2 years old. Off the shelf 10.58v & Run Settled @ 9.57v






Date Power Circuit
23-Jan Die-Hard 230cca Sampu Express
9T's & 4 coils
8 magnet / 5" rotor
Uses .97 amps to run, pushes .4amps


CCA AH CCA AH
Diehard 12v battery 230 Werker 205

Run Side to Charge Side

start 12.17 24hr rest 12:30:00 start 11.69 24hr rest 12:30:00
11.98 run settle
11.91 13:00:00 11.91 13:00:00
finish 7.92 14:00:00 finish 11.92 14:00:00

12.12 16hr rest 11.77 16hr rest
9.16 run settle


Results Rest results .05 used for .08 gain
Settle results 2.82v used for .08 gain


I'm running between all 3 batteries.
The 2 cca's get charged from the constant power supply and I use them to charge the 205 Werker.
Basically the 2 cca's are either charging or running after a 20-24hr rest.
The 205 Werker is getting a charge daily.

The 205 Werker get's dis-charged mainly on weekends (as it runs my lights and music in the Man Cave, better known as the basement).

I've been through 3 cycles so far and I do see gain each time to the cca batteries, slight as be.
I see this in both the 'resting voltage' & the 'run settle' voltage.

I see the file is a little scrambled... need to learn how to attach a file here..
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  09:29:36  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Have you filled the battery with distilled water? This will be the first steep

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  11:24:48  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 205 Werker's get yearly maintenance (as required).
The 2- 230cca's are sealed and need to come up with some caps or I can drill and cap it afterwards.
Short answer; Yes on my Big Boys, no on the cca's.

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  12:01:17  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Can you post a pic of the 205

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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fan1701
Average Member



USA
243 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  12:13:02  Show Profile Send fan1701 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Those Werker batts are SLAs. You can get to the caps by gently taking a thin knife or small thin flat screwdriver and working it under the plastic cover. Then carefully slid it under it and pry very slightly and the little bit of glue they use will let go fairly easy. Watch pulling the rubber caps off especially if they are sucked in. A little battery fluid can sometimes jump out when the suction is realeased. I can make a vid on how to release the tops if you need me too.

al


* Not following the manufacturer recommended specs * ON PURPOSE!
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  12:26:57  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here you go!

First are 2 pic's of the 205ah Werker



Next are the 230cca's from the tractor;

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  12:29:58  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi fan

All help on batteries is good pass on the info for all is our motto so yes do it. May be you should start a new thread call it SLA maintenance or something like that. people need to be able to see it on its own heading. THANKS

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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fan1701
Average Member



USA
243 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  12:30:53  Show Profile Send fan1701 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay. Not what I expected. The third and last batts can be refilled (and are flooded SLAs , my mistake). I open them with a sharp medium to small pair of flat screwdrivers. The caps will come out with some patients. Start by bumping a screwdriver in a little and prying . Then move 90 degrees and doing it again. You will fill them starting to come out. The last battery will be the same just peel back the sticker. I can show this now as I have two of them here at the shop waitng in line for reconditioning.

al

* Not following the manufacturer recommended specs * ON PURPOSE!
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fan1701
Average Member



USA
243 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  12:43:05  Show Profile Send fan1701 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi guys. I am uploading a video showing the caps and how toremove them without damaging the battery. I have started a new thread and when slowtube finally gets the video uploaded I will post it.

al

* Not following the manufacturer recommended specs * ON PURPOSE!
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  13:21:52  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

This what I would suggest and not what I would do on a every day bases. The 205 just discharge right the way it sets with 6 1/2 amps to 10.5 and let set 24 hrs. Then charge with a very Strong pulse motor and this should charge to ITS max or 30 hrs max. then report. the 2-230 cca discharge 1 amp to 10.5 volts rest 24hr then charge with pulse motor max 1 amp input to battery max or 30 hrs. then report. We can go from there. HOPE might take twice I think your batteries are very badly sulfated

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 03 2012 :  23:37:58  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@49er

In your video on desulphating, where you show the 10T TS Oscillator working on a T105, cold boiling, you state something pretty close to "And remeber, discharging is just as important".

Can you elaborate on that a bit?

Do you mean to say, typically the process doesn't get done first time around, and that you then discharge, take it back up...if so, when do you know when to say "quit" and begin discharging, instead of continuing to try to raise the voltage to "boil".

* I now see that 49er has answered this in the battery general information thread! Sorry - missed that thread.

Thanks
Great Vids, learning lots!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on February 04 2012 12:24:04
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fan1701
Average Member



USA
243 Posts

Posted - February 04 2012 :  00:37:38  Show Profile Send fan1701 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kc. I will butt in and say that discharging is just as important. The battery being "fixed " must be charged, rested, discharged, rested over and over again. If you skip the rest and the discharge you will destroy the battery permenantly. Been there, done that more than once. Each complete cycle the battery will be quite a bit stronger. Just leaving a battery on for days on end will not get it all the way there. It will recover to a point. I know you don't want to hear it but the twenty runs is almost the exact procedure to rejuvenate. The main difference being after 30ish hours (I go about 20) I rest the battery then discharge slowly. How much and how far down depend on where the battery rested to.

I will call that good for now. I think 49er 's explanation will be far better than mine.

al

* Not following the manufacturer recommended specs * ON PURPOSE!
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 04 2012 :  12:25:48  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@fan Thanks for the input. I see, now he has a full example in a different thread "battery general information" that I missed completely somehow!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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fan1701
Average Member



USA
243 Posts

Posted - February 04 2012 :  13:27:49  Show Profile Send fan1701 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I missed it too I think :)

al

* Not following the manufacturer recommended specs * ON PURPOSE!
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 05 2012 :  11:03:04  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi fan

What you said was pretty much it. The little details is for each battery and each operator

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
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