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deepcut
Junior Member


United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - January 07 2013 :  18:27:47  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've already posted about the effect in it's various incarnations :

You must be logged in to see this link.

From now on it'll all be in this thread.

Experiments have shown that the more turns on the coil, the larger the effect.

The last coil i wound was a 2-pounder, and when shorted and presented to the rotor it made very little difference to the rotor speed or the input current.

With no coil assembly present, the rotor speed was 486 Hz, and the current draw was 410 mA.

With the coil assembly present and shorted the rotor speed was 482 HZ and the current draw was 413 mA.

I then added a further pound of wire to the coil, and i managed to cock it up (again !)

As i was adding the additinal winding one end of the first winding snapped and i couldn't get to it.

So i had to wind everything off and then back on again, right near the end of the rewind (of course it had to happen right near the end !) my bloody endcap came off again - shoulda used superglue !



So i patiently stripped off the new winding layer :



Until i got down to the original winding :



But it was still unsalvageable, i could only find three of the ends :



So, this is a disappointing update and i've finally learned my lesson about superglue !

I'm ordering more wire next week (or maybe this week) and i look forward to winding a 3LB coil.

I did a test with the 2LB coil using the simple transformer setup, and the current input dropped by 50% when the secondary was shorted or loaded, i'm wondering if a 4lb coil would drop the input to zero ...

Anyway, it's all very interesting and i'm kicking myself for wasting time and money but i hope to have more results in a week or two.

The 2LB coil was outputting 600V AC @ ~400Hz, can anyone recommend a good way to step this down ?

I tried a cheap little transformer i had that was rated for 230V AC @ 50Hz but i think it's faulty.


All the best,

DC.











Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.

Edited by - deepcut on February 05 2013 14:59:54

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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 07 2013 :  19:44:14  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry Deepcut
As tragic as that is its also a little funny. Been there done that and it didnt seem funny at the time. When it happened to me I was able to salvage most of it, cut off the birds nest, put a sleeve through it, the end cap back, a piece of all thread and a couple of nuts. Hooked to a fence post and started backing up real slow. LOL

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - January 08 2013 :  08:05:31  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No worries msmir, it is kinda funny ;+}

Bird's nest, a very apt description.


All the best,

DC.



Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - January 08 2013 :  11:16:38  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks to Jeff for his transformer info link :

You must be logged in to see this link.

I've now put that into a spreadsheet to help with designing my stepdown tranny to take power from the AUL transformer.

The AUL transformer operates on square-wave so the maths was simplified a little, the spreadsheet is here for anyone that's interested :

You must be logged in to see this link.


Cheers,

DC.




Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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n/a
deleted



2079 Posts

Posted - January 08 2013 :  11:35:45  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ive done the same thing with the coils end coming off and wire all over the place, i think it has happened to everyone at one time or another. seems all our builds test your patience at one time or another. just hang in there and keep moving forward , later on you can look back at what happened wrong and just laugh.


Skype user name: SD3Txxx
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - January 08 2013 :  13:08:42  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cheers SD :)


DC.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - January 09 2013 :  13:10:11  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Got the spec sheet for my laminations, good performance :

You must be logged in to see this link.


DC.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - January 17 2013 :  07:12:20  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey DC-how is this project coming along?
Oh and what happened to the pic above?

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - January 23 2013 :  13:41:32  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM, just sat down to do an update, i didn't get a notification of this post, maybe i'm not subscribed to my own thread !

Before i ordered more wire i wanted to work out what the inductance and resistance and therefore the time-constant would be, the 2LB coil had a TC of 29ms so i wanted to better that.

So,more wire means more resistance and it worked out that a 3LB coil of the same wire gauge would have a TC of 28ms.

So i had to look at the next wire gauge up, which is 0.425mm (my suppliers diameters exclude the insulation).

A 3LB coil of the new wire would be around 140 ohms, which is quite low and can degrade the effect if too much current is allowed to flow, and i wasn't sure what the inductance would be so i couldn't accurately predict the TC.

The 2LB coil was 10.35H so i went with assuming the new coil would at least have the same inductance, the projected TC was 72ms with those figures, which is nice and large but i was still worried about the extra current flow.

Anyway, i ordered it and it arrived today.i put the coil former together (i used superglue this time SD !) and wound the wire on, one of the endcaps still moved even though it had been superglued, but it was no problem ad didn't come off.

I've altered the SSG driver circuit a bit and now i'm getting 40,000RPM for 6.3 watts instead of 30,000RPM for 8.5-9 watts.

So, the open rotor speed is 40kRPM, when the shorted, 3LB coil/core assembly is presented to the rotor the RPM drops by 400, so the frequency has dropped by 6.6Hz.

The current input dropped from 360 to 310mA.

So, in short, due to the lower resistance, i will need to wind more turns on this coil for it to overspeed the rotor.

I've ordered some 1K pots so that i can play with the resistance.

I had a shock today, literally, the worst electric shock i've ever had.

The coil puts out around 1100VAC, many, many turns, strong magnet, running at 666Hz.

When i was shorting it the plastic sleeve slipped back off the croc clip and i waas part of the circuit !

Man, oh man, i felt it go right across my chest from the tip of my fingers in my right hand to the same on the left and i shouted out.

You know when you read in stories "i heard a scream then realised it was me", it was a bit like that, i yelped like a dog ;+}

So i'm a bit disappointed by the results but i was half expecting it due to the low resistance.

TM sorry about the pics, i rearranged my photobucket stuff i'll put in the new links after this post if it's still editable.

Be safe fellow builders !


All the best,

DC.

Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.

Edited by - deepcut on January 28 2013 13:10:38
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - January 23 2013 :  13:52:06  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pics fixed now :)

Here's one of the new coil with a lighter next to it for scale :




Cheers,

DC.






Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.

Edited by - deepcut on February 05 2013 15:01:26
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - January 28 2013 :  13:16:48  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought i'd buy a cheapo USB scope, an 8KHZ, 2-channel one for twenty quid :



I didn't realise when i bought it that it doesn't do negative signals :(

And it can't zoom !

So be warned, if you want a cheap scope, just use the soundcard !


Cheers,

DC.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.

Edited by - deepcut on February 05 2013 15:02:11
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - February 05 2013 :  15:30:56  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi,

i'm concentrating on the transformer version of the effect at the moment :

You must be logged in to see this link.

I'm not providing the primary winding with AC, but with pulsed DC.

I was using this hardware :

You must be logged in to see this link.

I like the hardware but the pots are a bit touchy so i wanted something with more control.

I decided to use a software signal generator :

You must be logged in to see this link.

I already use this as a soundcard scope and it does the simple things i need well enough.

The output from the soundcard line-out is very small, i wanted more power for the pulsing.

So i've set it up like this (common collector amplifier ?) :

1. Soundcard line-out to audio amp.
2. Amp to TIP3055.
3. DC PSU to TIP3055.
4. Primary in series with PSU and 3055.

The siggen output activates the base of the transmitter, pulsing the coil through the collector current.

Unfortunately the current output is quite small, around 20mA.

I'm running the PSU at max, which is 18V so total power is only 0.36 watts, wheras it was around 9 watts with the hardware PWM.

I'm not very experienced with circuits and would appreciate if someone could tell me why so little current is being pulsed ?

The resistance of the primary is 24 ohms, the input voltage is 18.


Thanks,

DC.





Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - February 17 2013 :  09:33:18  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Decided to stick with rotor-based approach rather than transformer.

Mainly due to the fact that, with the rotor, as well as reduced current input, we get an increase in speed.

I've been trying all sorts of different coils and have decided to use long, narrow coils.

These are not as good as short coils for power generation but they are better for self-inductance, given a longer coil-former barrel you will get more turns for the same amount of wire than you would on a short barrel, and copper is getting pricey so it keeps my costs down.

My old rotor didn't have the room to accomodate long coils so i replaced the support bars with longer ones.

Because this is driven by a DC motor the device is quite long now at 500mm.

I am also turning it into a twin-rotor machine, to keep the power up in these long coils i will ad a rotor to the other end.

I have ordered acrylic for the new rotor disc plus coil support plates.

This is it so far :



Eventually it will have 6 coils, i have the materials but have yet to wind the first coil, the barrel is to the right of the machine in the pic above.

Here is a plan view diagram, dark grey rotor, light grey magnets, coils and cores, all to scale, 200mm diameter rotor :



I'll need 2000RPM to get my 400Hz for the coils, at the moment, with one rotor on the shaft, it does 2000RPM for 6 watts (8 volts @ 750mA).

When the second rotor is added i may need a more powerful motor, this one shouldn't really be run at over 500mA in continuous operation.


Cheers,

DC.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.

Edited by - deepcut on February 17 2013 14:53:10
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IrishDave
Senior Member



Ireland
850 Posts

Posted - February 17 2013 :  11:54:32  Show Profile Send IrishDave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looks great DC.
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - February 17 2013 :  15:08:24  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cheers Dave. It looks bad in real life ;+}

All the acrylic is fine, i get it laser-cut coz i don't have the tools.

But the MDF i'm using at the base, i drilled the holes in that and they're a bit off :(

I bought a cheap, plastic drill-press and i still can't drill a straight line !

Makes me really respect the material-workers of old.

I'm saving up for 10 mil pre-drilled acrylic end-blocks, the vibrations isnt bad just now but with two rotors it will be.


Cheers for looking in pal,

DC.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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IrishDave
Senior Member



Ireland
850 Posts

Posted - February 18 2013 :  05:57:21  Show Profile Send IrishDave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi DC.

Where are you getting the Acrylic from?
I have just about given up hope of getting any here with the huge costs they charge for it.
I could get a heavy duty glass rotor cheaper than an Acrylic one - it just does not make sense.
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - February 18 2013 :  06:50:57  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Dave,

i use two suppliers, the first one is denny plastics :

You must be logged in to see this link.

They do laser-cutting with 0.1mm accuracy, they don't mind doing small orders and they are friendly.

The other place i use is :

You must be logged in to see this link.

They are a bit cheaper but can take a while, it's just one guy with his CNC machine and he's a bit absent-minded lol !

Ebay has plenty of acrylic sellers, a few of them will CNC it for you too.


All the best,

DC.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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IrishDave
Senior Member



Ireland
850 Posts

Posted - February 18 2013 :  13:51:15  Show Profile Send IrishDave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TY.

I have both links saved :)
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - February 21 2013 :  12:06:59  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've been using Google Sketchup to do my designs, i hate learning new programs but sketchup is great, not like autocad where you are buried in menus.

Some of shots of the twin-rotor model :





Close-up of the slotted plate that the coil assemblies slide into :



Slotted coil support plates, this way up so that the coils are held in place by their own weight and it's a tight pushfit :



The unit is designed to be on its side :



Unlike the old setup, the weight of the coils is on the frame, which should help with low-rev vibration.

Can't wait until bits arrive and i can get on with making it !


Cheers for reading,

DC.








Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.

Edited by - deepcut on February 21 2013 12:11:56
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IrishDave
Senior Member



Ireland
850 Posts

Posted - February 22 2013 :  09:01:56  Show Profile Send IrishDave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nice!

I have never tried sketchup myself, but that looks impressive.
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - February 28 2013 :  06:04:41  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Spoke to my plastic people yesterday and they had forgotten all about my order from last week !!!

Godammit :(

Hopefully it will get here in time for the weekend, dying to get this thing built so i can begin testing.


Cheers,

DC.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 28 2013 :  06:24:29  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Google sketchup looks like it dose the job nicly-probably to hard for me to work out lol.
Your setup is looking so far DC.
I am looking forward to the first run.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - February 28 2013 :  06:41:54  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks TM :)

You'd learn sketchup easy, it's not like autocad, you're not buried in menus, it's really intuitive.

It's also free and comes with loads of training videos, there is a pro version for cash, too.

I hate fiddly software so if i can use sketchup anyone can :)


DC.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - March 04 2013 :  20:30:24  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just realised a HUGE flaw in my thinking :(

The old setup with the single diametric magnet ran at around 30,000RPM.

With a 2LB coil i was getting around 600VAC from that setup.

Although i am getting a similar frequency with the new setup using 12 magnets (400-500Hz, not fully-built yet as not all parts arrived but enough for testing) because i am running at 2,000 RPM the output voltage is around 40.

So it's all very well getting a fast frequency to get the AUL effect but i completely did not think of the RPM.

What a f***ing idiot i feel really stupid only thinking of that after i've designed and half built the bloody thing and still have parts on order yet to arrive.

Bloody bollocks :(


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 04 2013 :  22:42:42  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi DC
Will she hold together at those RPM's?-dont forget your safty glasses.
Ron-o has started a thread on inductors,and i thought it may help you out.
You must be logged in to see this link.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - March 05 2013 :  05:10:41  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM, the maximum i can spin the new setup at is 2,500, then the amp draw is too much for the DC motor.

I am having a rethink.

Thanks for the inductor link.


DC.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - March 15 2013 :  14:26:12  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK, rethinking is done !

I've also tested my virtual coil builder program against half a dozen calculators on the net and it compares well.

This calculator was particularly handy to compare results with :

You must be logged in to see this link.

I have ordered more wire in order to make a coil with the following properties :

Wire Diameter 0.4mm (0.421 including insulating layer)
Coil Resistance 183 Ohms
Coil Inductance 1.7 Henrys
Coil Inductance with core 8.5 Henrys
Coil Time Constant 46.5 ms
Coil length 36 mm
Coil diameter 96 mm

This coil has a TC of roughly 1.5 times the coil that had virtually no effect on rotor speed when presented and shorted.

The hope is that it will accelerate the rotor beyond its top speed with no coil assembly present.

It's nice to finally have an inductor simulator that gives close to real world results, rather than shootig in the dark like i was before.

I've done the coil output maths (using wind turbine maths from Hugh Piggot's book) and this coil will produce an average, rectified DC output of around 600 volts.

I've redone my coil output spreadsheet to account for rectangular or circular magnets, if anyone wants to use it it is here :

You must be logged in to see this link.

If you are using rectangular or square magnets, make the circular magnet diameter zero and just fill in your rectangular magnet's length and width.

The main problem here is the diameter of the coil at nearly 10cm, this means that, assuming the coil 'works' (overspeeds the rotor) that it will need a large circumference rotor to accomodate multiple coils.

I am solving my previous problem of going from high RPM's (20-40K) to low RPM's (2-2.5K) by using very strong magnets.

The magnets i want are £15 each and i need 12 of them to give me 400Hz @ 2000RPM.

Luckily i've just landed three well-paid contracts (after months of very little work) so i should be able to buy the magnets at the end of this month or next, depending how the work goes.

In the meantime, when the new coil is made (next week) i can test it on the high-speed, single-magnet testbed that i've been using. This will give me a consistent results baseline before i move on to the multi-magnet rotor.


Cheers for reading,

DC.












Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - March 23 2013 :  09:03:55  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Finally have a coil that overspeeds the rotor :) :)

I used my programs to calculate the best physical dimensions for a coil to maximise it's inductance, then wound the coil and tested.

I have ordered an HD webcam as i'm sick of my crappy, orange-looking videos where i can't even focus on my onscreen numbers with my current crapcam !

Video on the way but in the meantime here are the coil properties :

Wire diameter : 0.4mm
Wire amount : 2KG
Wire resistance : 258 ohms
Wire inductance : 11.8 Henries (with M6 grain-oriented laminations.)
Inductor Time constant : 45ms
Coil diameter : 110mm
Barrel length : 32mm

Test results.

Rotor with no coil/core assembly present.

Input volts : 18
Input amps : .384mA
Input Watts : 6.9
Frequency : 480Hz

Rotor with coil/core assembly present and shorted :

Input volts : 18
Input amps : .364mA
Input Watts : 6.5
Frequency : 498Hz

It's an expensive coil, not including the coil former and the laminations it's £30.

I can't take this much further at the moment, this test was done with the diametric magnet setup but, in order to do a multi-coil test, i have to build a multimagnet rotor.

The coils are fat and short so the rotor will have to be very large to accomodate 6 coils.

Vewry pleased with the results, even Thane said i wouldn't be able to do this :)

There is obviously more going on than just retarding the risetime in the coil.


All the best,

DC.





Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.

Edited by - deepcut on March 23 2013 09:05:46
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 23 2013 :  09:10:16  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have taken the time to view all your video's DC,and i must say i am impressed with the coil lighting that incandecant bulb-without adding to the P/in.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - March 23 2013 :  14:09:09  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks TM that's nice to hear :)

The next demo will be more impressive :)


Cheers,

DC.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - March 27 2013 :  10:30:23  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think i'll change my name from DeepCut to CockUp !

Don't yet have an overspeed coil, turns out my perspex was bending slightly when the heavy coil was put on top so my previous post is BAD DATA ! The bending perspex put pressure on one side of the bearings :(

Anyway, my baby rotor now passing 40,000 RPM :

You must be logged in to see this link.

All set to try the coil again once my thicker, UNBENDABLE, perspex sheeting arrives.


All the best,

DC.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.

Edited by - deepcut on March 27 2013 10:31:06
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IrishDave
Senior Member



Ireland
850 Posts

Posted - April 02 2013 :  07:16:12  Show Profile Send IrishDave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pics missing and youtube channel gone?
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - April 11 2013 :  10:47:58  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup, sorry Dave, one day i may be able to explain.

New coil has no effect on rotor.

It also accelerates as an aircore, so it's not down to remnant magnetism in the core.

All of the details are in the infobox.

You must be logged in to see this link.


Cheers,

DC.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - April 12 2013 :  11:14:42  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey DC
Have you seen z's latest video?-very interesting results here too.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - April 12 2013 :  11:18:20  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ye i've been PM'ing him, telling him everything i know.

I'm trying to get more info out of Thane as i'm having a hard time getting power out of these coils.

Because i spin so fast, the inductive reactance stops ALL voltage.

I'm beginning to think the coils have to be matched to the load but i'm still pondering.


All the best,

DC.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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