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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member


USA
1434 Posts

Posted - December 14 2012 :  17:26:56  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've joined another forum dealing with raising livestock and they have a section on alterntive power
Interesting
Let's see where their at

In there saving a battery section
They're into quick fix solutions
I mean solution's

Epsom salt/ ya, Magnesium Sulfate

The immediate impression was get the heck out of this site and find another, but the Livestock area is still kinda cool
Second was... What the heck are they doing to their batteries?
Third was.. immediate gratification

I'm saving batteries with both my SS SSG and the TSO version. Heck, I still have my Sampu Express when all else fails to drop back to.

BUT, What the heck are doing to their batteries???











Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 14 2012 :  18:03:34  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Olddawgsrule

Magnesium Sulphate ( Sulfate ) is used to break dowm sulfation in the lead acid batteries. It is ment to redissolve the insoluble lead salts and to "etch" the cells plates thus increasing charge capacity.

ron
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - December 14 2012 :  20:44:18  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Ron
Is the Magnesium Sulfate something you leave in the battery or is more of a bath, only to be used for a short period of time.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - December 15 2012 :  07:27:01  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Msmjr asked my next question...

Next would be; Do you consider it a good practice?

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - December 15 2012 :  11:37:45  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi All

My battery experiments with it only killed my battery. Magnesium sulfate kills sulfuric acid so the battery wont work. But maybe I should have drained the acid and used the solution and then replaced the acid??

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - December 15 2012 :  12:14:27  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Doug!
Was awaiting your arrival!
Figured if anyone tried this, it is probably you!

Not knowing and being the curious individual I am..
I assumed it was somekind of wash.

With Ron's statement of "It is ment to redissolve the insoluble lead salts"
And your experience ans statement of "Magnesium sulfate kills sulfuric acid"

This is sounding more and more like a wash.

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 15 2012 :  18:03:37  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Guys

As far as i know , you drain the battery acid and replace it with a solution ( water + Magnesium Sulphate ) now some people say you just leave it to work ( this i doubt , personally ) others say that you charge the battery as normal and when the current has fallen to the trickle charge rate , switch off , empty out the Magnesium Sulphate / water / byproducts. Wash out with distilled water / empty and then finally refill the battery with battery strength 1.250 acid solution.

I have not tried this myself

ron
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - December 15 2012 :  22:54:02  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yea make 1 good run with a SS or a TSO charger, rince and repeat. I like that idea better than washing with baking soda before adding Alum.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - December 16 2012 :  08:08:14  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That makes more sense to me.

I have a couple of batteries on the shelf awaiting there turn.
I may just make an experiment out this since it seems no one yet has tried it as a wash (sounds like Doug tried an add)

Can you help me create a baseline to determine success/failure

Neither battery will take and hold a conventional charge.
So one of them could be a good candidate for the test

My initial thought is to wash, re-fill and put it on a conventional charger
By using the conventional charger, I figure I'm mimicking what their doing and not adding the influence of my TSO circuit.

Criteria;
First; if it takes and holds the charge (time and hopefully rate)
Second; what it does on a load

With re-reading Ron's reply the question would be to either;
Soak for a given period of time (I would assume overnight)
Or, throw a charge at it with solution in place (could this aid?)














Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!


Edited by - olddawgsrule on December 16 2012 13:29:49
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - December 16 2012 :  14:12:18  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's an interesting artilce I read on the subject;
The underlined parts are by my doing to call attention.
I like the way he puts it forward.
I also like how he insists pulsing is the way go.



Here is a decent article. Not written by me.

"Here is the way one man does it:

On my system, electronic pulsing is accomplished by pulsing with a modified Don Denhardt thermistor controlled pulser. It's just a matter of leaving the pulser connected long enough to erode the sulfate crystals back into the electrolyte. From a couple of days to a month, depending on the amount of sulfation you want to remove...The last 10% is hard to remove and takes longer than the first 90%.

I sometimes use EDTA on the really badly sulfated batteries, when I don't want to waste a month or two on it with pulsing. The fastest way is to empty out the electrolyte and flush the battery with distilled water, then desulfate with EDTA. I just pick the battery up, turn it upside down and shake it to get the fluids out. It's a lot of work, but it works fast...but be aware that it is harsh and dangerous, with a higher failure rate, due to the plates breaking down and shorting out. Acid gets on you; You must keep it flushed off with lots of water. I repeat, it is harsh and dangerous...I don't encourage this method, but is useful in culling otherwise useless batteries for desulfation. Shorted batteries are never candidates for desulfation. Don't mess with them. If you find a 12V battery with less than 10.5 volts, I almost guarantee one or more of the plates are shorted. I won't touch a battery that is lower than 11.5V as a rule. I have heard of adding baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) in the distilled water stage to further raise the ph, to speed up things...but it is a nightmare of flushing with distilled water, to get the bicarb out. Otherwise, it's a waste to add fresh electrolyte. I wouldn't recommend it at all. Even though I buy distilled water at Walmart for 58 cents a gallon, I would have to use 10 gallons of flushing and my arms would fall off from the shaking and it's not worth it.

The Process:

I first shake the battery around to loosen the shedded plate material on the floor. After shaking the electrolyte and debris out, I fill it halfway with distilled water, shake it around and empty it out while shaking. After flushing a couple of times with distilled, the water comes out fairly clean. I then fill it with distilled water, add the EDTA (dissolved with distilled water) and let the battery sit for a couple of hours. If it is badly sulfated, it will immediately bubble like the devil from the chemical reaction. After the resting period, I then put a 2 amp charge on it and usually add the pulser to help it along. After a day or so, the voltage hits 12.5V and plates are nearly cleaned. I then let it sit for day, with only the pulser on it. The voltage usually drops to 10.5 or lower. I pull the pulser and charger, and connect my 100 or 50 amp load tester (depending on battery type and size). After a couple of 10 second tests, to check the condition, I run the battery down further for a couple of minutes (about thirty seconds at a time, to prevent overheating the load tester), to drain it down. Apparently, the desulfation process works quicker when the battery has been quickly drained and is slow charging again (this also works in pulsing alone). I've use a heavy steel tire iron across the posts for 10-15 seconds on non-desulfated batteries and recharged. Doing this (hot discharge) on any lead acid battery, at anytime, (with or without EDTA or pulsing), filled with regular electrolyte or distilled water, will always cause the amount of reserve current to rise. This can always be verified when later charged fully up and tested with a load tester...It probably exposes more fresh plate area. This rough treatment also will kill a battery with crumbly plates and weak separators. It may cause the battery to blow up, especially if the electrolyte level is low (more room for hydrogen and oxygen gas to accumulate-that's another reason to keep the battery topped off with distilled water) ...Don't be tempted. Acid is nasty to the face and eyes. A battery with the water level lowered to the top of the plates has enough trapped gas to explode the battery like a small bomb....That's no exaggeration...I've seen it happen.

I then drain the distilled water thoroughly, add fresh electrolyte and let the battery rest for a couple of hours. The final act is to recharge the battery up to 13.5V on a long slow charge. About seventy five percent of the shorts will show up now. Most of the tears in the plastic separators were hidden by the sulfate crystals. Lead sulfate crystals act as insulators, keeping the swollen or crumbly plates from touching. When the crystals are gone, any deformaties in the plates, along with tears in the separators, will cause the plates to touch and short when charged up to about 12.5-12.75V. If the battery passes these rigors, it is going to live for a long while.

Remember, the batteries I use this harsh method on are old and badly sulfated to begin with; non-shorted junkers. I want to weed the terminal ones out, right then, and not even save the marginal ones, which are going to short and die six months or a year down the line anyhow.

Good candidates for desulfation are relatively young batteries, that have become sulfated thru neglect and extended discharge. A new battery can become completely sulfated if left nearly fully discharged, in only a couple of weeks. The plates are fairly new, but covered in crystals. These newer batteries better respond to any type of desulfation with a lesser rate of shorts.

If you have the time, electronic desulfation usually the safest method. The next safest method would be to add a small dose of liquid EDTA to the old electrolyte and let it work slowly over time. EDTA doesn't like to dissolve in acid. If you start with powdered EDTA, dissolve it in very warm distilled water. EDTA works slowly in an acid environment. After removing the crystals, most the EDTA/crystal compound breaks down in the acid and some of the EDTA is free to work again. It permanently bonds in a non-acid environment, but works quicky.

I prefer electonic pulsing over EDTA, because when the eroded crystals dissolve, the sulfate is released back into the electolyte and some of the lead or lead peroxide plate material is "plated" back onto the respective plates, the rest settling onto the floor of the battery case. More of the plate material ends up on the floor with the use of EDTA, but most batteries have an excess of material to start with, and full current reserve is maintained. The exception are very old batteries, where most of the plates have already shedded on to the floor to begin with and the desulfation process reduces the plates down to nearly the capacity before the desulfation began. Toss'em in the recycle heap and find a better candidate to work on.

The bottom line is, if you wait too many years to begin any type of desulfation, the battery probably won't be worth the effort. I'd start pulsing batteries within six months, to a year of use, for at least a day or two.

Desulfation works best in higher temperatures. The best time to pulse your batteries in your vehicle and battery bank is summer. Make it a habit to pulse all of your batteries every summer and you will extend the life of them four or five times...Eventually, enough of the plate material will shed off to the point where the battery's reserve is reduced to 50% of the original reserve...That is the time to send them off to the recycler... not because of deep sulfation, or shorts caused by sulfates swelling the plates, crumbling them and rupturing the separators.


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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