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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 08 2012 :  17:55:24  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi again ! Olddawgsrule

Just wondered is there any particular area of capacitors that you would to see covered ?

ron
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - December 09 2012 :  10:01:23  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Way back in Guide #3 you mention this;
"A typical "dump" voltage seems to be approx 21 volts with a charge battery of 12 volts and the cap bank is in the order of 140000uF"

In Guide #5 we see how to size a capacitor for a known need from a known supply.
I guess I would express that as over-coming the resistance of the motor/need.(?)...

Since a batteries resistance is changing,
How did you come to 21v as the typical discharge voltage?

Is there a formula that gets us into this range?


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 09 2012 :  13:00:09  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Typical "dump" voltage approx 21 volts.

Reading many solar panel data sheets and comments from fellow experimenters a typical "12 volt" panel produces a maximum
open circuit output of approx 21 volts ( this voltage is of course used to charge the "dump" capacitor NOT to charge the battery directly from the solar panel)

I will get back to part 5 question shortly

ron

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 09 2012 :  14:25:14  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In guide 5 we were looking at the CONSTANT POWER DISCHARGE equation.

Here Power is measured in Watts ( watts = volts x amps ). In the example it was stated that the motor would provide a constant load ( wattage of 2.4 ) between two voltage limits ( 14 volts to 10 volts ) .

The calculation required that the capacitor should have sufficient capacity to power the motor for a period of 5 minutes and in order to maintain the motor within its constant power demand band , the voltage had to start at 14 and drop over 5 minutes to 10 volts ( whilst powering the motor )

Hence :-

So in the "ideal" world a 15 Farad capacitor , charged to 14 volts and then discharged through the above motor until the voltage on the cap was 10 volts would keep the motor running for 5 minutes ( 300 seconds )

ron
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - December 09 2012 :  14:38:25  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote

One of things I love about capacitors is they'll take all available power and build from it.
The question evolves around... How did we get to knowing it takes 21v+-...
If I use a simple formula, based on this information, then it would take 42v to release on a 24v battery setup
15v to release on 9v battery
2.6v on a 1.5v battery
and so on....

Hey, I'm just a carpenter!
It can't be this simple....

quote:
Originally posted by ron_o

Typical "dump" voltage approx 21 volts.

Reading many solar panel data sheets and comments from fellow experimenters a typical "12 volt" panel produces a maximum
open circuit output of approx 21 volts ( this voltage is of course used to charge the "dump" capacitor NOT to charge the battery directly from the solar panel)

I will get back to part 5 question shortly

ron






Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 09 2012 :  15:38:14  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm sorry to have to agree "It can't be this simple...." and it isn't !

If you look at the charge ( or discharge ) vs time graph you will notice that the plot does not produce a straight line , it does in fact follow an exponential curve ( the "slope" of which is determined by either the rate of charge or discharge) .

The product of capacitance ( in Farads ) and resistance ( in Ohms ) gives what is called the "time constant " ( measured in seconds) . A capacitor will achieve a terminal voltage of approx 63% of that of the charging voltage in one such time constant ( likewise a capacitor will discharge to approx 37% of its original charged voltage in one such time constant )

Only problem is that it takes five such time constants to either reach full charge or full discharge ( both approx 99% ) , so it is normally only the first time constant ( ie approx 63% charge or 37% discharge voltage ) that is used

So here comes the real world problems , we have to choose a capacitor that our solar panel can charge in as short a time as possible to a voltage which is at the very least going to be the nominal battery voltage + 63% of the nominal battery voltage ( obviously the higher the voltage difference on the cap the better since if we stick with the one time constant
we are only going to get back 63% of the total amount of energy that was put into the capacitor to charge the battery)

Allowance also has to be made as to the battery being able to cope with the discharge current pulse from the capacitor.


So the actual solar panel "off load" voltage required is not a simple ratio , but is dictated by other factors.

ron


Edited by - ron_o on December 10 2012 20:42:58
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - December 09 2012 :  16:53:49  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ron, the information coming back is so potent, that it's takes me some time to absorb.
That's not a 'slight'... That's a Huge Compliment!
I asked, your supplying!

I knew it couldn't be a straight line, had a feeling it wouldn't follow a curve, way too many other influences involved..

Now this is fun!
If I read this correctly.....
The capacitor will only charge 63% what it's given?
And will dis-charge only 37% of what it gained?

I realize that every comportment I add has a cost.
Simplifying is key.

Again, if I read this right, only about 23% of what I throw at the capacitor is coming back.

Not bad considering I had nothing before.
Not good as to loss.
But then again, better than these project panels claim for gain!








Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 09 2012 :  18:30:44  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Has i said before , sorry but its not that simple !

Thank you for the compliment! i will try to keep up the "good work"

The capacitor must be considered as a non-linear storage device , it quickly begins to fill but when it reaches a certain point ( approx 63% = one time constant ) it starts to slow down and dowm , taking an extra 4 such time constants to fill the capacitor to 99% of the charging supply voltage

Lets assume our time constant ( = charge resistance x capacitance ) = 1 second and our charge supply voltage is 100 volts

So first second ( 1 time constant ) cap filled to 63% of charge voltage ( or 63 volts ) it would then require a further 4 seconds to bring the charge on the capacitor to 99 volts ( so the extra 4 seconds = 4 time constants has only added 99 - 63 = 36 volts )

We know that the capacitor can discharge approx 63% of its retained charge in 1 second ( 1 time constant ) or it can discharge approx 99 % of its charge in 5 seconds ( 5 time constants )

However we can never fully discharge our capacitor because the battery voltage is ( hopefully !!! ) never zero volts , it is it's nominal terminal voltage that we take as our starting point.

ron
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 10 2012 :  19:01:01  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Continued

At 0.7 time constants the voltage on the capacitor will be equal to half the supply ( charging ) voltage , at 4 time constants the voltage on the capacitor will be equal to 99% of the supply ( charging ) voltage and finally at 5 time constants the capacitor the capacitor will have reached its "steady state period " ( basicially means fully charged )

Let's assume that we need a minimum voltage of 14 volts to charge our 12 volt battery and that just
happens to be equal to 0.63 of the supply ( charging ) voltage.

So supply ( charging ) voltage = 14 / 0.63 = 22.222 volts

We know that the number of time constants required for the capacitor to charge to a potential equal
to 99% of the supply voltage ( 22.222 volts ) , is 3

Thus 22.222 x .99 = 21.998 volts , so now the difference between 21.998 volts and the 14 volts from the
battery is 7.998 volts,

This equates to ( 7.998 / 22.22 ) x 100 = 35.99%of the panels output is being used to actually charge the battery via the capacitor charge dump ( and since a low ESR capacitor is very efficient at releasing it's
charge nearly all the capacitors energy goes to the battery )

A typical solar panel connected via a blocking diode to a battery will have its output voltage "pulled
down" bt the battery , typically to about 18 volts , this is why "peak point tracker" chargers are used.
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totoalas
Junior Member



Macao
168 Posts

Posted - December 11 2012 :  00:49:45  Show Profile Send totoalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very interesting and 100 % applicable in my Solar SG Oscillator booster
2 10 w panel in series 32 to 36 v supply to circuit
2 12 v 7 ah ( one sla and one Alum converted) batteries are independently charged
circuit output to batteries are average 13 v dc
The circuit seeks the level of the battery voltage thus no overcharging
1. Do I need to install caps and what size is suitable
2. Or just plain booster circuit
My load are a Joule ringer 1 with 10 10 220 v ac led 5 w lamps
the other battery for a SS SSG charger 1000 AH charging 4 60 ah batteries(alum converted)
hope you can help before I go to Zuhai China this Saturday for my xmas electronics shopping lol
totoalas
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - December 11 2012 :  16:34:59  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is kinda weird...
My last post doesn't show, but you just answered 75% of what I asked..

Did I mention this is Kinda weird???

Thank you Ron!
You seem to be anticipating my question before I ask!

Time constraints seem to answer many questions I had, with what I see.

The other 25% deal with the spikes I see.
This would be the first constraint, as the capacitor releases the most power.
Believing before that the capacitor released linear, I was tuning to the second, third, etc... constraint.
Being what I see the most and have time to deal with.
This changes 'everything' I was assuming.

If I understand you correctly..
I've been tuning for lower release and allowing the greater release to pass by me...



quote:
Originally posted by ron_o

Continued

At 0.7 time constants the voltage on the capacitor will be equal to half the supply ( charging ) voltage , at 4 time constants the voltage on the capacitor will be equal to 99% of the supply ( charging ) voltage and finally at 5 time constants the capacitor the capacitor will have reached its "steady state period " ( basicially means fully charged )

Let's assume that we need a minimum voltage of 14 volts to charge our 12 volt battery and that just
happens to be equal to 0.63 of the supply ( charging ) voltage.

So supply ( charging ) voltage = 14 / 0.63 = 22.222 volts

We know that the number of time constants required for the capacitor to charge to a potential equal
to 99% of the supply voltage ( 22.222 volts ) , is 3

Thus 22.222 x .99 = 21.998 volts , so now the difference between 21.998 volts and the 14 volts from the
battery is 7.998 volts,

This equates to ( 7.998 / 22.22 ) x 100 = 35.99%of the panels output is being used to actually charge the battery via the capacitor charge dump ( and since a low ESR capacitor is very efficient at releasing it's
charge nearly all the capacitors energy goes to the battery )

A typical solar panel connected via a blocking diode to a battery will have its output voltage "pulled
down" bt the battery , typically to about 18 volts , this is why "peak point tracker" chargers are used.



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 11 2012 :  17:10:45  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A brief recap:-

Previously i mentioned

"A typical solar panel connected via a blocking diode to a battery will have its output voltage "pulled
down" by the battery , typically to about 18 volts , this is why "peak point tracker" chargers are used"

lets now expand this statement "A typical solar panels .... output voltage "pulled down" bt the battery , typically to about 18 volts"

This does depend upon the panels power output compared to the charge battery capacity ( but since battery capacity and solar panels are normally balanced / matched the stated 18 volts is about right )

Now if we do a similar exercise as above( 18 volts - 14 volts ) / 18 and then convert to percentage we get a power output from the panel of 22.22 % when connected directly to the battery !

Does this mean that the solar to cap is far more efficient ? approx 36 % to 22 % Once again the answer is no , and this is why.... the output of a solar panel is stated in watts but due to the internal resistance of the panel the output voltage varies quite "wildly" depending upon the load but the available current also varies ( watts = volts x amps ) so even though the voltage is lower the current is correspondingly higher so in fact little difference exists between the two systems.

However the advantage that a cap charge / dump circuit has is that in low light conditions ( because the cap imposes very little load on the panel ) a useful amount of charge can be collected and "dumped" into the battery THIS IS NOT something for nothing it just produces a burst of energy which helps desulphate the cells in the battery as well as charging at the same time.




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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 11 2012 :  17:19:14  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Olddawgsrule

QUOTE

"This is kinda weird...
My last post doesn't show, but you just answered 75% of what I asked..

Did I mention this is Kinda weird???

Thank you Ron!
You seem to be anticipating my question before I ask!"

Hmmmmmm , is it weird or just that it's a logical path ( i'll go weird it makes it more exciting , lol )

ron
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 11 2012 :  17:32:11  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Totoalas

I think you have asked this question before and i answered it , however ( since it's nearly Christmas ) here we go again :-

Smaller caps charge quicker than larger caps BUT smaller caps hold less energy ( for the same peak panel voltage )than larger value capacitors. Given the output power of your panels i would suggest 15,000 uF as the smallest value and 47,000uF as the largest value ( suggest 63 volt working voltage rating on caps )

A simple comparator type cap "dump" circuit is all that you require ( Farmhand on E.F has published several such circuits ) along with a capacitor

ron
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - December 11 2012 :  17:38:23  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Can the same be said for my wind turbine?
I'm assuming so...

quote:
Originally posted by ron_o

A brief recap:-

Previously i mentioned

"A typical solar panel connected via a blocking diode to a battery will have its output voltage "pulled
down" by the battery , typically to about 18 volts , this is why "peak point tracker" chargers are used"

lets now expand this statement "A typical solar panels .... output voltage "pulled down" bt the battery , typically to about 18 volts"

This does depend upon the panels power output compared to the charge battery capacity ( but since battery capacity and solar panels are normally balanced / matched the stated 18 volts is about right )

Now if we do a similar exercise as above( 18 volts - 14 volts ) / 18 and then convert to percentage we get a power output from the panel of 22.22 % when connected directly to the battery !

Does this mean that the solar to cap is far more efficient ? approx 36 % to 22 % Once again the answer is no , and this is why.... the output of a solar panel is stated in watts but due to the internal resistance of the panel the output voltage varies quite "wildly" depending upon the load but the available current also varies ( watts = volts x amps ) so even though the voltage is lower the current is correspondingly higher so in fact little difference exists between the two systems.

However the advantage that a cap charge / dump circuit has is that in low light conditions ( because the cap imposes very little load on the panel ) a useful amount of charge can be collected and "dumped" into the battery THIS IS NOT something for nothing it just produces a burst of energy which helps desulphate the cells in the battery as well as charging at the same time.








Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - December 11 2012 :  17:43:50  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 'Peak Point Tracker' is on my list of reseach!
I saw that.. checked quickly... Saw I need to spend some time on that.


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 11 2012 :  18:04:54  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi again, Olddawgsrule

Yes , you could use a cap charge / dump circuit on a wind generator.

A very good ( and cheap to build ) circuit exists on the net for a peak point tracker ( i will see if i can locate it for you )

A peak point tracker is more suited to a solar panel system BUT it's application(s) are not written in stone

ron

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totoalas
Junior Member



Macao
168 Posts

Posted - December 11 2012 :  22:09:59  Show Profile Send totoalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks ron o
I just want to optimize my current set up and your detailed explanation said it all
the Solar Tracker 3 by JB use chips and no more coils
Im for easy construction with optimal results
thanks again for sharing
talking of windmill, ill dig up my first build and replicate again this one using ceiling fan with water proof rotor, hd drive magnets

totoalas
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - December 12 2012 :  15:55:22  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As we go through the Hows & whys they work... Which I'm enjoying and learning!
Can we talk about how to test what we have in a circuit to see if it's working correctly?(The meter you suggested, I never did ask if it could work in circuit.)





Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 13 2012 :  15:06:05  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Power tracker link

You must be logged in to see this link.

ron

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 13 2012 :  15:36:24  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Olddawgsrule

With regard to you question "can the meter i suggested be used for in-circuit tests"

I personally prefer to remove or disconnect one lead of the capacitor when testing components , so i have read through the supplied handbook , which simply states that the meter should not be used on any circuit that may have any residual power else the meter maybe destroyed.

So i'm going to say no , it cannot / is not suitable for in-circuit tests and since i don't fancy spending another 80 to 90 to replace my existing meter i'm going to continue disconnecting the component! , lol

ron
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totoalas
Junior Member



Macao
168 Posts

Posted - December 13 2012 :  18:22:59  Show Profile Send totoalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks ron for the link
Is this power point tracker had the same principle with John Bedini,s solar tracker 3 using only chips minus the coils

In JB,s video on a sunset mode the current meter scale is jumping up and down the full scale showing efficient charging effect in cloudy or day and night charging lol
See if I can find the parts this Saturday
If I use this circuit then no need for series solar panels ......
totoalas
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 14 2012 :  03:20:49  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Totoalas

I'm not sure of Bedini's latest version(s) circuit , however the original circuit was a timed cap charge / cap discharge type ( no inductors were used ) the circuit ( minus a few parts or with "errors" ) is shown in the patent. This version does not actually monitor the voltage level on the caps ( it just discharges them into the battery at a defined time interval ). The best type is one that actually discharges the cap's into the battery when a preset voltage is reached across the capacitors ( voltage comparator circuit ).
If you watch the meters you will see that in poor light it takes longer for the charge to build up on the capacitors before being discharged , so i would assume that this is a modified version of his first solar charger.

ron
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - December 31 2012 :  17:07:21  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a specific question on something I'm working on.

I need to replace a 200v 470uf capacitor.
It's a PET style.

Having a problem finding the match for it...

Thought was...

Since I can line them up in parallel and increase uf (maintain voltage), Then shouldn't I be able to series them and maintain uf (increasing voltage)?

When I put them on the tester... I see I'm wrong... It cut the uf in half...
Need to do it again and see what happened to the voltage.
The uf drop stopped me dead in my tracks...






Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - December 31 2012 :  20:09:46  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you connect two capacitors ( of the same uF value ) together you will get : example 6 uF

in parallel :- twice the original capacitance ( working voltage stays the same ) ( 12 uF )

in series :- half the original capacitance ( double the working voltage ) ( 3 uF )

ron
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - January 01 2013 :  11:12:40  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A simplified equation exists for calculating the resultant value of two capacitors connected in series

Value = Ca x Cb / ( Ca + Cb )

example 10 uF and 30 uF in series , let Ca = 10 uF and Cb = 30 uF

Value = 10 x 30 / ( 10 + 30 )

Value = 300 / 40 = 7.5 uF ( note the resultant combined value will always be less than the value of the smaller of the two capacitors capacitor )

NOTE if adding capacitors together to increase the overall working voltage it it important to use capacitors of the same working voltage

ron
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - January 01 2013 :  17:45:21  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I knew I could rely on you for an equation!
It just surprised me as to what I saw...

Once again, I thank you for the information and learning!

I did find a replacement, though not exactly what I pulled out...

quote:
Originally posted by ron_o

A simplified equation exists for calculating the resultant value of two capacitors connected in series

Value = Ca x Cb / ( Ca + Cb )

example 10 uF and 30 uF in series , let Ca = 10 uF and Cb = 30 uF

Value = 10 x 30 / ( 10 + 30 )

Value = 300 / 40 = 7.5 uF ( note the resultant combined value will always be less than the value of the smaller of the two capacitors capacitor )

NOTE if adding capacitors together to increase the overall working voltage it it important to use capacitors of the same working voltage

ron



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - January 01 2013 :  18:30:47  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Olddawgsrule

You are welcome , my friend.

Your question will lead onto the next section , parallel plate and cylinder type design calculations for "special" high voltage applications.

ron
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - January 06 2013 :  10:54:43  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I may.. I understand that I can up the voltage when replacing a capacitor and must keep the uf the same. How far up in voltage is considered safe?

I'm trying to replace a 200v 120uf in a TV I have. Closest I'm finding is 450v (and that seems way too high to me, then again...). Found one, but have to buy 100pcs and wait 3 months....

Realizing the cap will only push what the circuit requires... Then it seems it may be Okay??

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - January 08 2013 :  18:16:45  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Olddawgsrule

Sorry for not replying sooner but i have been unable ( until now ) to get onto the iaec site !

your 120 uF @ 200 volt cap ........ i would agree , 450 volt is a little on the high side but modern caps are quite stable so i think it might be worth a try ( at least until a better option turns up )

ron

You must be logged in to see this link.

Edited by - ron_o on January 08 2013 18:34:11
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - January 09 2013 :  07:10:40  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you Ron!

I followed the link back to an US distributor which to my amazement I hadn't seen before.
They had what I needed.

I know have an other source.
For those of you, like me, that haven't noticed then before;
You must be logged in to see this link.

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - January 12 2013 :  15:35:03  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Olddawgsrule

I'm glad you were able to get the right component to repair your TV

ron
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - February 23 2013 :  16:24:28  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a link that shows how to make a high voltage ( 5000 volts ) variable capacitor.

You must be logged in to see this link.

ron
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The_Architect
Average Member



USA
327 Posts

Posted - February 23 2013 :  22:35:58  Show Profile  Visit The_Architect's Homepage Send The_Architect a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for putting this thread together, all that did so. Then information here is going to be invaluable to me, (I have a little project that requires high DC voltage to be held on a circuit, and might possibly make superconductors at room temp to become a possibility, with out exotic materials or exotic combinations. Guess I need to head over and make a thread for it once I start working on it.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 24 2013 :  13:40:23  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay Ron... You ready for 'left field'?

Here it comes;

Background first;
SC posts up a thread on Growing plants in dark.
I'm interested.
Research leads me to many theories and experiments.
Basically, it's absorbing the energy given by sunlight, passing it through the plant, and grounding through metal plates and wiring.

Full circuit (something even I can grasp) with control of the energy being key to the specific plant (amount/distance/etc..)

Now I come across this article;You must be logged in to see this link.

In which he talks of using a Variable Capacitor to 'tune' the energy.

Yep,,, Left field!

You've given me a great amount of understanding of capacitors as they work with electricity, but...

Radiant Energy??

Really?




Old in age, not in mind, so
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ron_o
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Posted - February 24 2013 :  15:39:45  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Olddawgsrule

It would seem that we have both been awakened from our "slumbers" with regard to Vern's project ( this is why i was searching for high voltage variable caps ).

I have sent Vern a couple of circuit diagrams of "detecting" electricity / galvanic response in plants , if your intrested i can send them to you.

With regard to "radient energy" , if you consider a capacitor ( plant soil = one plate , the other being the "emitter" plate = second plate ) that is being charged via an insulated collector plate. A potential difference gradient exists all around us ( approx 200 to 300 volts ) for every 3 verticle feet. Also the Sun emitts charged particles . Does the length of the downlead ( acts as inductor ) soil / emitter ( acts as capacitor ) form a resonate circuit ?

ron
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olddawgsrule
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USA
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Posted - February 24 2013 :  17:06:46  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote

"I have sent Vern a couple of circuit diagrams of "detecting" electricity / galvanic response in plants , if your intrested i can send them to you."

Yes please do.
Much to learn here.

"form a resonate circuit ?"
It seems it does, of some kind..

"A potential difference gradient exists all around us (approx 200 to 300 volts) for every 3 verticle feet."

Now that statement I need some time with and a bit of research.
Brings forward too many thoughts.






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ron_o
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Posted - February 24 2013 :  17:50:52  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Olddawgsrule

Information should be with you ( check your e_mail )

Look up "atmospheric electricity / potential gradient"

ron
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olddawgsrule
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Posted - February 25 2013 :  16:40:51  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Recieved and Thank you once again!

Much to read.
Then... more questions coming...



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ron_o
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Posted - February 25 2013 :  18:44:23  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your welcome

I look forward to to "Then ... more questions comming ...."

It has been proven that plants benifit from an electric field/ potential but what about a pulsed field , waveform/shape and frequency. Positive biased or negative biased field ?

ron
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olddawgsrule
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Posted - February 26 2013 :  17:44:36  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ron_o

Your welcome

I look forward to to "Then ... more questions comming ...."

It has been proven that plants benifit from an electric field/ potential but what about a pulsed field , waveform/shape and frequency. Positive biased or negative biased field ?

ron



Don't go too deep yet, I have much to research yet...
What I didn't understand is that capacitors, un-like a battery, do so much more.

Frequency, seems to be what I'm seeing so far.
Are we talking air capacitor here?




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ron_o
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Posted - February 28 2013 :  20:00:05  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes , the air acts as a dielectric between the emitter plate and the soil.

All living cells be they plant or animal act as capacitors , the interior of the cell is approx minus 75 millivolts lower than the outside of the cell by vertue of the membrane that surrounds it. This membrane "balances" ions to keep this potential difference.

ron
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screaminvern
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USA
121 Posts

Posted - February 28 2013 :  22:48:19  Show Profile Send screaminvern a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey guys this is a fantastic thread! I too will be spending a lot of time here as I need to learn about caps. I think I mentioned in another thread that I have been playing with crystal batteries (or cells, what ever they're called), anyway I built a variable air capacitor out of hard-drive platters to add to the electrifying fun! I wanted to make it bigger but I didn't have long enough bolts, so I have 17 more fins to add to it at some point in time. Here are some pics of it; nuthin purdy but it seems to work.

0.132 nF



0.042 nF





{History does "not" repeat it's self, idiots repeat history.}
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olddawgsrule
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USA
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Posted - March 01 2013 :  16:56:13  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To Vern: I am so happy to see others are learning and enjoying from the efforts Ron has put forward just because I asked him a question or two!

Okay, a few...

While I'm still confirming what 'we' are talking about, you built the unit.
Kuddo's Dude!

Skip Purdy... Actually looks pretty darn good to me.

Here's where I ask:
What's your source power going to be?
Setting up a collector plate??



Old in age, not in mind, so
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Edited by - olddawgsrule on March 02 2013 06:48:58
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screaminvern
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USA
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Posted - March 02 2013 :  09:09:58  Show Profile Send screaminvern a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OD, I built the variable cap last summer and have been using it with John Bedini's low voltage circuit for crystal bateries (cool stuff). I have three 3" by 2" copper/galvanized steel crystal batteries and when I have the them hooked in series I get around 2.5 Volts dc, and when their hooked paraelle I get 0.650 to 0.700 Volts dc with a little more milliamps ofcorse, but thats the size of the source power being used with the variable cap for now.

However, we are getting a new roof for the house this spring, so I am patiently waiting for that to start and finish so I can resume the "growing plants in the dark" project and I will be using the homemade cap in one portion of it.

{History does "not" repeat it's self, idiots repeat history.}
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The_Architect
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USA
327 Posts

Posted - March 02 2013 :  12:44:55  Show Profile  Visit The_Architect's Homepage Send The_Architect a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Vern, have you considered allthread? Not sure if there is a wholesale tool near you, but that looks like 1/4-20TPI bolts right? if so they have that size of rod for peanuts :) ($1.25 a rod here)
You must be logged in to see this link.

I live in a town with one of these, so it is all local, and small money purchases are a pretty good deal for me, but shipping something like this unless you order enough (being out of say state) would be needed to offset the price of shipping for the cost of taxes you are not having to pay. If anyone wants me to try small ordering stuff for them, let me know, and I can get you some prices, to cut down on costs of our fabrication. Right now I just need to find a source to buy wire from XD

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent
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ron_o
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United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - March 02 2013 :  14:54:02  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Vern

Thats a rather nice variable cap design ( i especially like the recycling angle ! )

you could change the dielectric from "air" ( which has a dielectric constant defined as 1 ) to a material which has a higher dielectric value ( for example ... dry paper = 2 so your capacitor would double in capacitance value , plexiglass = 4 )

also you could bring the plates closed together ( breakdown voltage of capacitor then drops )

and finally it would be possible to simply add suitable small value capacitors across your variable capacitor to increase its overall value ( start value - plates open = fixed cap value , final value - plates meshed = fixed value cap + variable capacitor "meshed" value )

ron
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olddawgsrule
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USA
1434 Posts

Posted - March 02 2013 :  15:17:52  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've been kinda scared to ask, but it's drivin' me nuts , so here it goes...

I'm reading and seeing this air capacitor used in Ham Radio.
Which I believe I'm reading as frequency adjustment.
That leads me to a tuning coil....

Is a 'tuning coil' also a capacitor?



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'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
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Posted - March 02 2013 :  16:07:17  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No , a tuning coil is simple an inductor , the combination of the inductor and capacitor allow the resonance of the circut to be varied / adjusted. This adjustment in radio aplication allows different radio station(s) to be "tuned in" / received

Suggest you look at a simple radio circuit ( crystal set )... try "mystery crystal set"

Way we are going i might have to start a "learning about inductors" topic


ron
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olddawgsrule
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USA
1434 Posts

Posted - March 02 2013 :  16:19:31  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Save me a seat!

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