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TinMan
Advanced Member


4082 Posts

Posted - November 12 2012 :  06:53:46  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well as im going to have a go at makeing some hydrogen with the gen-e-motor,i thought i would start a new thread to post my work on.

I have scored myself a big sheet of 316 s/s 2mm thick.
So now i would like the help of anyone that has the know how of how to build the most efficient cell there is lol(Darrell lol)

I do have my old tube cells some where that might get me going,but i would like to build a very large cell,and make some serious gas to pump back into the motor.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69

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Darrell
Junior Member



USA
108 Posts

Posted - November 12 2012 :  17:31:21  Show Profile Send Darrell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan, I like to help any way I can. First off how much HHO are thinking that you will need to make to run that generator? What is the max that the Gen will product in amps? I think you said that it would put out 40 amps in the video. With that info should give us a good place to start. Let me know. "D"
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 12 2012 :  17:45:44  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Darrell
At 1200 rpm,i can get 30 amp's at 16 volt's(but not so good for the 12 volt battery)
So at a guess i would say abot 35 amp's at 14 volt's-1200 rpm.
At 2000 rpm,i can peg the 60 amp meter-so it is 60 amps at 19 volts+.
But i would like to stay around the 1200 to 1400 rpm range-as there is no ned to have the motor runing any faster than that.

I will be setting this up a litle diferent to most system's(as thats what i do lol)in that,one cell will be hooked in series with the 12 volt battery-and the other will be run from the battery itself(to keep the voltage down to about 14 volt's
The second cell(which i will call the boost cell)will be controlled by a PWM.
This way,the more i pull from the battery with the boost cell-the more the primary cell will produce without drawing any more power from the generator.

Im thinking of a dry-wet cell hybrid as i believe dry cell's are a waiste in material.

But any input would be great.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 12 2012 :  18:01:46  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This seems to be good production for the amps he is useing at 12 volt's



swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Darrell
Junior Member



USA
108 Posts

Posted - November 12 2012 :  18:16:04  Show Profile Send Darrell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's a good video but there is one flaw with his cell and that is the outside of the plates has 12 volts making the water 12 volts. The outsides plates must be covered so that the cells between can do more work. I am working on a hybrid cell right now that is a wet/dry unit that focuses all the energy to the inside plates. I will send you a couple of short clips (via email)of it running on the test bench. I think you will be superized at the out put.

Once I get everything dialed in I will start the new thread hear on the forum. "D"
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - November 12 2012 :  18:46:37  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wet cells suffer current leakage. As I see it, it's no different than saying, "I'll cut the case off my battery and drop the guts into a big plastic pail, it'll work the same".

Over time, after quite a lot of use, your electrolyte has the remaining catalyst left in the cell. At this point you may be adding just distilled water (plain). The cell is conductive, and there is no need to add additional electrolyte. That may be sodium, potassium or any variant commonly used.

So in your "juice" you also have turbulence, from the bubbles of HHO. These bubbles are stirring the pot of cations and ions. For moments in time, in a wet cell, there may appear "paths of less resistance" that deviate from plate A ---> directly to ----> plate B. Then, suddenly, turbulence once again alters the "path" and this seemingly low resistance route, becomes high resistance. This "spill off" of current occurs around the edges of the plates, in a wet cell.

This phenomenon does not occur in drycells (except in and around the porting holes), and the MMW's obtained by enthusiasts climbed much higher when the dry cells became the norm.



In this video, the above comment is examined as well, as a look at some typical old school wet cells, and a more typical newer Gary Hendershot EBN cell.

That said, there are some exceptions to this situation, and they are said to excel, for their own reasons.

This would include Bob Boyce's wet cell where great care has been taken to truly encapsulate the wet cell design into tight parameters, his build is not as easy as it looks his tolerances are very low. in addition Bob Boyce exploits a circuit that is said to improve production, but few have replicated it beyond a dummy version using 555 timers; when, in fact Bob himself and two other colleagues have taken the design into the MHz range, not doable with a 555.

Another exception is George Wiseman's build.
You must be logged in to see this link.

George's design is not well understood, but, if you study the document you will determine that by very nature of design, he overcomes the current leakge problem that even dry cells have, and that is, that his design has no ports from plate to plate, at all... NO holes...
There are only small, small gaps between the circular plates, themselves, and the pipewalls, and spacing rings. Also note his conversations on port holes (don't have them.. he states..) and his larg(ish) gap of 3/8". The only reason no one experimented with 3/8" gap in dry cells is that it is hard to find EDPM rubber sheets in 3/8". Note Georges discussion on what happens when spacing is too narrow, and his theory on linear HHO or "brown's gas" appearing in the actual center BETWEEN plates.

Both the Bob Boyce, and George Wiseman Designs are topfed, with NO HOLES (ports) between plates, such that both suffer absolute minimum current leakage, though, technically both are wet cell design.

Craig Westbrooks design seems to exploit the best of the two above methods with his own adaptations, which he claims pushes it overunity.
perhaps, he has also capitalized on Stan Meyer's principles wherein current and brute force are no longer a huge necessity. Bob Boyce claimed to, as well, but never managed to prove it, IMO. His claimed results were never officially replicated, however two colleagues are said to have done it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on November 12 2012 22:10:08
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 12 2012 :  23:19:44  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi guys
Thanks for all the input
I do have a design of my own that I have been toying with
It is so very simple yet effective
It has no voltage leakage points at all as it has no transfer holes- but it is a dry cell

Will be looking forward to your new cell type Darrell- can't wait to see it

And looks like I might have to go check out all those cells you were talking about Kyle
Would you happen to have a link to crags cell design?

I have not done much work in regards to HHO.,
But this old generator has some really good points to it, and seems to produce a lot of HHO from my little cell at 5 amps- while still charging a battery at 7 amps
To get the same amount of gas from that cell, I have to use 12 amps at 13.5 volts

But I should have one of my cells finished by the weekend- oh and they are made from ss tube
Probably already been done, but I'm yet to see one the same

Once again- thanks guys

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - November 13 2012 :  00:15:18  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wish you the best of luck as always tinman, and George's stuff is always interesting to read whether you employ any of his methodology or not, I liked it so much I went and ordered the book directly, paid the money. You must be logged in to see this link.

** edit:

BTW tinman that gas generator is so cool. i wish I could buy one, right now. For those that have never fired up a generator, to only, in turn use that AC to run an (inefficient) battery charger (120VAC -> 16VDC) @ say 20 or 30A, meanwhile you have a 3000 watt generator... (all because there is no wind or sun...) IT's BEYOND RETARDED. trust me.

Let's not forget, he popularized the capacitive transformer as well, and his guide on that is great too.

My personal best for MMW is 4.88. Not real great, but it was enough to see 10-15% gains on my diesel 6.2l.

Let's not all forget too, if you can devise an ingenious splitter cell you can use the sun and store hydrogen for the lean months. not a well discussed technology; but a proven one. Not proven to be COST EFFECTIVE, if judged by:



His setup cost a half a million bucks! Of US taxpayer money, mostly (80%). From the Hobart Electrolyzer to the PEM - a dream machine unobtainable by nearly anyone.

That said, though, it has been done in a more realistic manner before, by a guy named Walt Pyle.
You must be logged in to see this link.

He got his 15 minutes of fame in Home power Magazine. Here is a layout of the system.
You must be logged in to see this link.



Interestingly, few talk about Walt Pyle's white paper on Direct-Hydrogen Solar system, and his paper is public, here:
You must be logged in to see this link.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on November 13 2012 00:29:32
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 13 2012 :  06:52:19  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok so from my understanding we need a dry cell that has no points of current leakage?
So if this is all that is needed for the most efficient cell,then why dont people build a cell just like the above?-no points of current leakage in a dry cell arangment.
Infact this would be the easiest and cheapest cell to build.

So the next question is-what voltage across each cell-as i have heard so many diferent story's
The norm seem's to be 2 volt's-or there about's.
Now here is where i have a big problem with this voltage.
First we lower the volt's to lower the temp,then we add an electrolite to increase the conductivity of the water.This inturn draws more current-thus creating the very same heat we wanted to eliminate in the first place.This just make's no sence at all.

So my theroy is a higher voltage with lower current and no electrolite.
If current causes heat,and heat is bad-then why not just get rid of the current by useing a higher voltage?



swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Darrell
Junior Member



USA
108 Posts

Posted - November 13 2012 :  11:16:03  Show Profile Send Darrell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TinMan

Ok so from my understanding we need a dry cell that has no points of current leakage?
It's hard to build a dry cell that has no current leakage if the cells are flowing water thru because current jumps thru the water. Even in the tank there is full voltage reading from the power being applied.


So the next question is-what voltage across each cell-as i have heard so many diferent story's
The norm seem's to be 2 volt's-or there about's.
Now here is where i have a big problem with this voltage.
First we lower the volt's to lower the temp,then we add an electrolite to increase the conductivity of the water.This inturn draws more current-thus creating the very same heat we wanted to eliminate in the first place.This just make's no sence at all.

As current leakage is minimized and or blocked the heat goes away.

So my theroy is a higher voltage with lower current and no electrolite.
If current causes heat,and heat is bad-then why not just get rid of the current by useing a higher voltage?

This is the best way but know one has figured out how Stan did it yet or those that did are not talking about it. I have some good ideas about how to do it after seeing my solid state make small amount of HHO but don't know how to build the circuits to further testing in this area. It would be cool if several of us got together on a project to see what we could come up with. "D"



swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 13 2012 :  17:40:00  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK,so the first thing is to make a cell with no current leakage point's-not so hard.
In reguards to a drive system,well that will just be the generator in my case.
Now my plate gap will be about 4mm.The reason for this is because i have found i get the best result's with a gap of that size,and i will be useing a higher voltage.
Also there will be no neutral plate's as such in each cell-although i could hook them up in series if need be.

So how much loss do the current leakage points cause in a cell,and how much better would the cell be if it had no current leakage point's?

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Darrell
Junior Member



USA
108 Posts

Posted - November 13 2012 :  19:32:57  Show Profile Send Darrell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So Are building a Unipolar set up? And will it be wet or dry? How many plates are going to be used?
I know, so many question being ask LOL...

I have seen dry cells that sell on the market that make 1 liter of gas to every 15amps or so. You can build a standard dry cells that produce 1 Lpm per every 11amps. That is the limit for a standard dry cell set ups. There are several differnt technques and methods to making more gas using plates though.
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 13 2012 :  22:59:21  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It will be a dry cell tube design
38mm inside 50 mm ss tube
Two 50mm tubes welded together
Power then hooked to both 38mm tubes
This will halve the voltage across each cell

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 14 2012 :  06:57:26  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well here is my first test results for my dry tube cell-not so good i dont think.
12.5 volts
3 amps
and it took 4 minutes to get a ltr.
Had to add a bit of salt as i dont have any koh or other stuff to bring the conductivity up.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Darrell
Junior Member



USA
108 Posts

Posted - November 14 2012 :  11:13:20  Show Profile Send Darrell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan
Good test results lets break the numbers down to see what the MMW's are
You making .25 Lpm divide that by the watts (37.5) and times it by 1000
.25/37.5 X 1000 = 6.66MMW
Now we need to figure out how to get more gas out. First we need to know the surface area of the negetive tubes. Once you have that number divide it by 2 that will give you the max amps you can run to keep to heat down to managable levels.

If you want to increase production we must add more cells groups. By adding another like the one you have. The voltage will be spit in half and amps we will have to double by adding more elite. But you must keep the second set of tubes seperate in it's own container to keep the mmw's your seeing now and wire the secong set of tubes in series from the first set.

You can use Lye(NAOH)for the elite and it can be found in your hardware store. Just make sure that it is 100% Lye and you should be good to go:)

Darrell

Edited by - Darrell on November 14 2012 11:37:44
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 14 2012 :  23:06:41  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So what mmw is considered over unity?
Is 7.62mmw right?

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - November 14 2012 :  23:22:24  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
if you wante dto make a zero current leakage tubular design, each cell would be individual; i.e. the outer diameter of a negative tube would match the I.D. of a containing pvc pipe. Inside that tube, you'd have your gap, then another SS tube that was sealed to the system. There would only be liquid between the tubes. That would be one cell. All cells would be individual, all fed individual. The would all live in a large pipe, to contain their "off-gass", your product. No typical drycell is zero leakage because of the port holes. No wet cell is even close, unless of the Bob Boyce or George Wiseman variants. When Darrels cell operates in open air, it may in fact be zero current leakage, if, and only if, he has no port holes from plate to plate.

The difficult part is supplying replacement water/e-lyte to a zero current leakage cell. Typically we rely on ports to allow self leveling of water. And, we rely on port for off-gassing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - November 14 2012 :  23:41:38  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here tinman, this will help you normalize your MMW calc to given barometric pressure

You must be logged in to see this link.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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Darrell
Junior Member



USA
108 Posts

Posted - November 14 2012 :  23:51:40  Show Profile Send Darrell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is a great Calculator. Thanks for posting it. :) "D"
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - November 15 2012 :  00:10:36  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For sure. Besides being a dick and kicking me out for talking about the possibility of even the electrolyte affecting unity gain... (name one guy at the time that wasn't using more than 15%, and running tests BEFORE their reservoir was running clean...)... ...

despite all that...

he knew his *Nice*. i won't say he didn't.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on November 15 2012 00:11:05
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 15 2012 :  07:04:04  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kyle
A zero leakage cell is quite easy to make,as i have already made one.
It took about 20 minutes work,and is so simple it's not funny--and cheap.
I am picking up my new camera tomorow,so i will give it a test drive on my cell lol-right after i learn how to use it.
My new camera is an early xmas gift from my daughter,as she saw the old one get a wash in the sink lol-and knows how much i need it lol.

Anyway,each cell of mine would cost about $8.oo to build.
And apparently my mmw isnt that bad,considering i never sanded or washed the tube's lol--to much of a hurry lol.
So we would need about 5 to 6 cells for a 13 volt supply.
To make more gas from each cell-we just make them longer.
The one i built and tested is only 250mm long by 50mm OD--so not very big at all.
At 500mm long each,i should get 1 ltr every 2 minutes from each cell.
So with six cell's,i should get 3 ltr's a minute.That should be enough to do some testing on the motor.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 17 2012 :  07:23:26  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well it should be the first HHO test run tomorow,as i got my dry cell finished today.
So will be testing the fuel consumption with a set load-and no HHO.
Then the same test with the HHO cell in serie's with the battery,and running the same load.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 18 2012 :  07:30:12  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First timed run with a very inefficient cell.
It has an MMW of only 3.3,so a cell that is up around 6MMW would increase the efficiency of the motor even further.
I believe it possable to get an efficiency of up to a 40% increase with a decent cell.
I will also be working a bit more on the generator itself.This will include removeing the large inductor on the output side-to see what effect that has aswell.

Im looking forward to Darrell's cell test result's,to see if his cell will take this beyond what we have at the moment.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - November 18 2012 :  23:28:19  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Tm
The one thing you cant measure is load ver no load. Unloaded time was 1.54min, loaded was 2.11min. Now if you could put, lets say a 20amp load, on the engine and rerun the first test the difference would be much higher.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 19 2012 :  00:15:37  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm
If I had a 20 amp load to start with, then when I added the cell load aswell- I would have a 40 amp load total
So taking this into account, the results would have been the same
Now the skeptics all say you get no gain or even a loss with HHO
So how is it that an unloaded engine uses more fuel than a loaded engine if HHO dosnt work?
What you have to remember with this engine is that the governor keeps the engine at a constant rpm
So when the engine is under load, the governor will open the throttle a bit more to keep the rpm at a set speed- thus using more fuel
So if the HHO is a loss, and also put a 25 amp at 11 volts load on the engine- why did it run longer on the same amount of fuel???
Also keep in mind that this cells performance is terrible at an mmw of around 3.3
So what would be the outcome of a cell with an mmw of say 6 ?

The one thing you have to remember is that I didn't really believe that HHO could do any good, until I seen it with my own eyes
Now the one thing I will say is, I'm not sure wether it is the generator that is making this possible , or if HHO setups will work the same with a normal generator?

It is my intention to take this as far as I can
I would like to increase the run time by 1 minute in the same test situation
This would shut the skeptics up once and for all
It has certainly change my mind

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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n/a
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2079 Posts

Posted - November 19 2012 :  00:15:41  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tinman, i am very sure once you run darrell cell design it will blow your socks off, lol. cant say anymore, just trust me lol.


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n/a
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2079 Posts

Posted - November 19 2012 :  00:19:12  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
also i would use anything else but baking soda, try some drain cleaner, i have even heard of a few using koolaid lol. output just from using drain cleaner would be alot better, some liquid drain cleaner would give that cell a major boost. i have been using sodium hydroxide and other test KOH the sodium hydroxide,(lye) does pretty good by my standards


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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - November 19 2012 :  00:34:15  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Tinman

Which of your designs are you referring to as zero leakage? If your plates have holes in them to let liquid equalize across the cells, it's not zero leakage. If you drop stainless steel tubes in cylindrical container, that is not zero leakage either, and why wouldn't you have used your 6MMW cell, on your generator? LOL You have me thoroughly confused.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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n/a
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2079 Posts

Posted - November 19 2012 :  00:40:00  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i think that first monster cell he made kc, the glass container it was sitting in broke, he said he was gonna find a new container


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TinMan
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4082 Posts

Posted - November 19 2012 :  07:26:49  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kyle
My 6mmw cell is actualy a wet cell that i used in a few video's so far.
First problem is i dont have a sealed container to use it in.
And second problem is that it heats the water up very fast,and the mmw go's down quick once the water starts getting to hot.

My o current leakage cell is a tube cell.
But rather than try to explain how i have made it 0 current leakage,i made a video to show you all how i achieved it.
I am processing the video now,and will then upload it to youtube-and post it here as soon as it's done.
This ceel perform's quite well,but i only have one made so far,as that is about all the s/s tube i have lying around.
I will be getting more soon,i just need to find the time to make the 1 hour journey to the farm to pick it up.

The reason i made and used the cell you seen in the last video,is because it is the biggest on HHO production-and i had all the materials lying around to build it.

But i have seen a short video of Darrell's little cell-and man,dose that pump some gas lol.
So awaiting on his test result's to see where i go from here.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 19 2012 :  08:16:12  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is a short video of my 0 current leakage tube cell.
As you will see, there very easy and cheap to make.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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n/a
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2079 Posts

Posted - November 20 2012 :  00:05:21  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
when darrell stopped by, we worked on cell design and used both the 15T solid state and the newer 5T solid state with the MJ15003 transistors. i do not think we ever went over 10amps and got some pretty good prodcution of gas, he figured out the MMW on it , if darrell, hey if you remember you can post the numbers. but again, it was far from a zero leak set up. and for a gallon of distilled water we used 1/4 T-spoon of sodium hydroxide.


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TinMan
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4082 Posts

Posted - November 20 2012 :  09:22:06  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi SD
I have seen many video's where they use bi carb soda as the electrolite,and get realy good result's
It just dosnt seem to be right useing all those nasty chemical's,when i can use something i can eat safely lol.???

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

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Posted - November 20 2012 :  10:03:54  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i can understand you want a safe solution, just letting you know , those that used the soda was not as efficent as other solutions which produced better output. darrell also asked me to mention, if you can get a differnt tube for the larger on to fit with thats within .030 to .040 you will get really good production between the two, just might have to tig weld on that rubber type fitting just using a brass fitting , but it should work really good. ill be making a cell with .030 spacing, only 5 neutrals and positive and negative , and either one of the solid states or even the 3 phase will run it very well. just trying to help you to get better results. i have seen darrells results, and it is something else!!


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kcarring
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Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - November 20 2012 :  14:53:32  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Advantages:

Available at grocery store
Cheap
Safe
Very good gas production

Disadvantages:

Significant and rapid oxidation, the water becomes brown
The electrolytic bath “wear out” quickly, we must change the bath every 1000 miles
Produces some CO2 and CO


Put simply...

Na HCO 3 ...

You are adding sodium, carbon, and hydrogen...

When you use NaOH, or KOH you are substituting the carbonate, for hydroxide. Thus, you are left with only metals in your reactor.

All remaining elements integrate with the process, there is no carbon to deal with.

Brown gunge is not desirable, nor is having to change out / add electryte to keep performance stable.

It's ok for simple masjon jar setups tho, because they are accessible, and not usually expensive, if the whole thing is "on the cheap" - it's OK.

Remember to always condition and USE your electrolyser a good long while before putting into the vehicle. I wait till the fuel (water) is running clean, in other words, my "tank" is JUST water. For 2 reasons: first being, "clean water" (all the electrolyte is already in the reactor) is a better FILTER (if you are re-bubbling through your tank, before the bubbler). Secondly, if your motor has an aluminum or magnesium intake manifold - residue electrolyte will rot the hell out of it. For this reason too, your experimental MMW figures, may or may not be representative of what you will experience during use. I had 5.6 MMW experimental, 4.88 driving, because during experimental, there was still electrolyte IN MY FUEL, during driving - there was none. Faradays laws were not calculated with 20% (full concentration) KOH water LOL

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on November 20 2012 14:57:52
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TinMan
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4082 Posts

Posted - November 21 2012 :  05:51:10  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i will be sticking with my bicarb(safe to drink)soda lol.
Im just not into nasty chemicals.
Just imagin if we actualy got a system that ran on HHO going-but then you had to add chemicals to your fuel(water)tank.
My goal is to have no electrolite at all-just pure water,but first we must lern to crawl befor we walk-then walk befor we run.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
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4082 Posts

Posted - November 21 2012 :  05:54:24  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK-big news.
Come saterday,i will be taking delivery of a machine that i have been serching for for over 6 years now.
This is where we make a break through with HHO.
I all so (hopefuly) have some HHO dry cells comeing from my capital city on saterday aswell,from a youtube user that also is into HHO experimenting.

So things are slowly comeing together.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Darrell
Junior Member



USA
108 Posts

Posted - November 21 2012 :  11:28:32  Show Profile Send Darrell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You have my attention to what machine you have been searching for for 6 years. Inquiring minds want to know....

Spill the beans already. "D"
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n/a
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2079 Posts

Posted - November 21 2012 :  11:52:29  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ok, while waitting for the new! inserts sound track from the movie "JAWS"


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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - November 21 2012 :  15:03:52  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Tinman Choice is yours of course, but I'm curious if you realize or not, that when you use KOH or NaOH, there is only metal left in the reactor once it is cycled... it is not an ongoing thing... and thus your fuel IS pure water thereafter... baking soda, is, on the other hand, and so is the gunge, and degunging process...

and so

quote:
Just imagin if we actualy got a system that ran on HHO going-but then you had to add chemicals to your fuel(water)tank.


is not accurate.... I ran HHO in my truck, and never did I add electrolyte, only when I ripped it apart, made changes and thus "started over".

When you hear about guys running diesels and constantly adding 20% electrolyte, they only really have to do that if operating in freezing temperatures (-10 to -20) and dont want their equipment freeze cracking. And on that note, I've never used 20%. 5% was the highest I ever went.



Adding excessive amounts of CO, C, and CO2 into your intake... and your motor will eventually need a de-gunging too... not to mention the greenhouse gases that are contributed...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on November 21 2012 15:14:41
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TinMan
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4082 Posts

Posted - November 21 2012 :  17:45:55  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kyle
Well im not sure if our bakeing soda is the same over here ,as i dont get the water turning brown like your above picture.
After 2 hour's of running,the water was the same as when i started???
Maybe not a long enough run time?
But just for testing purposes,i will stick with the bicarb-cheap and easy to get.
Once i have something im happy with-then we can switch to the good stuff lol.

Darrell-Now how is that new cell comeing along??--will be needing the best of the best come sunday lol.
I have bought all my electric solinoids and the pulse timer i alseady have.
I havnt seen the machine yet,so it probably will need some work.But as they are extreemly hard to get your hands on over here,i bought it without viewing it--although i did get a picture of it first.
This thing was built in 1938 (apparently)
So first step(like the old generator)is to clean it all up.
Second step is to convert to an injected LPG setup,and get it running.Then get some LPM numbers.
Third step is to make a good HHO cell
Then the big one-get it to run on HHO,

There, that should be enough of a hint to work out what the new machine is lol.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Darrell
Junior Member



USA
108 Posts

Posted - November 21 2012 :  20:53:10  Show Profile Send Darrell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The cell build is going well but need more time away from work to do more testing. Going 0n 60 hours in the last 4 days but have the next 3 off. I am trying to set the cell up as a wet cell unit first so I can show everyone what is taking place in each cell as it's making gas. I will then build a bigger version as a dry cell to put out allot of HHO. :) I am working on this cell project with Hollywoods7 on you tube but haven't posted any videos on my channel yet. As soon as I do I will also post here as well.

3 key elements to remember that I will show is:

Get the plate close .030" to .040" and use hard gasket material
Use thick plates to keep the gaps true and straight.
And control the flow.
"D"
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 21 2012 :  23:24:32  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Darrell
Well as you can see with my old generator- controlling the current isn't a problem
The dry cell in my video has a 1mm PVC gasket between each plate- seems to be water tight
I will be using a modified 150 amp altinator on the new setup first, as I have a setup where I can adjust the current while maintaining a constant speed
If this dosnt work to well, I will modify the old genny and use that

So let's see what we can achieve with our combined bits and pieces


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Darrell
Junior Member



USA
108 Posts

Posted - November 22 2012 :  00:01:43  Show Profile Send Darrell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How big are the plates? Are the gaskets hard pvc or soft? Also what is the standing voltage off the generator without a load? And what is the voltage between each plate or cell while the reactor is running.

Sorry for all the qestions but I may be able to help you make allot more gas at the same amps and volts.

Oh, an by the way, I really liked your tube design. Now they were cool, we could make them work as well. If you used 6 tube cells wired in series even if they share the same water tank you should be able to get around 6.25 MMW thats right at Faraday's law ;) "D"

Edited by - Darrell on November 22 2012 00:37:10
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n/a
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2079 Posts

Posted - November 22 2012 :  02:24:35  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i remember that first multi tube set up tinman ran a while back, now i bet that set up would do pretty good. find a old fish tank or something so you can use that cell lol.


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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - November 22 2012 :  02:31:48  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sounds like a Maytag hit and miss battery charger to me. But that's just a guess, and well, a bit of a dream of my own... to find. If Tin found one, I'm jealous.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 22 2012 :  05:52:32  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol-no KC,-im not getting a maytag lol.
More along the line's of a lister lol.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

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n/a
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2079 Posts

Posted - November 22 2012 :  12:19:28  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
that would be cool, do laundry at the same time you are conditioning batterys,making hydrogen.


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Darrell
Junior Member



USA
108 Posts

Posted - November 22 2012 :  13:01:22  Show Profile Send Darrell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TinMan did you see my comments on page 3?
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - November 22 2012 :  17:52:35  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Darrell
I seen many comments lol.But if you are refering to cell size comments -then it is around 200mm x 300mm
The spaceing is 1mm.
Gaskets are clear PVC flexi material (like used on clear patio blinds)
Total volt's is around 11 volt's
Number of plates is 5.
Volts accross each plate is around 2.5 to 2.75 volt's-hard to get accurate reading as generator voltage fluxuates at this low speed.

S/S plates are not exactly flat,as they are from a round drum-but did my best to get them flat lol.
So spaceing will vary some over each plate-i just used what i had lying around.
This was just a quick throw together cell for some testing.
Cell MMW is only around 3 to 3.5 lol-my wet cell dose much better at an MMW of around 6

Im going to build 5 more of my tube cells ,and plug them all into the one water tank-bubbler and see how that go's.

But im more interested in a cell like the one you had in the video you sent me--lots of gas lol.

Come saterday afternoon-it will be time to get the new arrival up and running (hopefuly)

So a question for you all-how dose!say 100ml! of HHO compair to 100ml of LPG in reguards to being a fuel?
This is at atmospheric preasure.
Will a 100ml of LPG produce more than 100ml of HHO as in run time and power output within an internal combustion engine?
And what percentage of HHO do you need with ambiant air to run an ICE ?

If an ICE has a cc of 1 ltr,and is running at 500 rpm-we then divide that by 2(as it is a 4 stroke engine)
So air consumption is now 250 ltr's a minute(this is at full throtal)
So if we need say 10% HHO to go with the 90% ambiant air-then we need 25 ltr's a minute to run this machine at full throtal.
I hope this is not going to be the case lol.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - November 22 2012 :  18:24:14  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Tinman As in a diesel, original style, closer to a Rudolph Diesel design genset?

@SD The Maytag is actually very cool. it is a hit and miss generator that charges batteries about 2-3X more efficiently than using a modern generator, hooked up to a battery charger.



Typically Diesels can have HHO replace some of the combustion with HHO, but there is a threshold, for starters you have to have the lubrication in the cylinders, so either you still burn some diesel, or, you inject something into the HHO...

The other bigger issue is RPM and how an engine is engineered, and WHY it is engineered as such.

To make 120VAC, you want a higher RPM, than to make 12-15 volts VDC. When replacing the fuel (be that gas or diesel) with woodgas, you want a low operational RPM, with torque on the low end. You don't want an internal combustion motor running 24/7 to produce your home power, and when you make high RPM 120VAC power you have to balance it's load + charging ability to your schedule, and when you actually NEED power.

If your goal is PURELY for DC charging, and woodgas is your fuel, some guys have even contemplated modifying listers to run like a hit and miss! (to what degree of success, I do not know)
You must be logged in to see this link.

In any event diesel, hit and miss... 12VDC or 120 VAC, they all have their different parameters. I have seen a hit and miss battery charger ran on methane/woodgas + HHO, and I'll tell you what, it's no joke man, it's a true grid alternative. Most will laugh, sure, but most don't understand: It's about an efficient means to an end, and when the sun ain't shining, and the wind ain't blowing, it's pretty cool to toss in some woodchips in the fire, open up a methane bladder from a swamp, fire up the HHO once she's going, and watch a 40A charge go into a 1000Ah bank. In this manner, if his battery bank is nearly full, he doesn't really need to "do a wash" or "weld" - he just fires up the hit and miss to put a charge on the bank, nevermind spinning something 3000 RPM to make 12V. Furthermore he can run it for 8 hours and put a nice steady lower current charge, and it costs very little, only measurable in his "labour time" - no actual $ out for fuel. Sure, you can have a big diesel running a charge into a bank, but unless your bank is 10,000 aH, can you run a C20 into your bank for many many hours, at a low or zero cost? I call it his "swampgas", but it is actually natural methane digester / refractory, whatever you wanna call it.. but I call it a swamp, cause it annoys him LOL. He also has shown me how he "closes the loop" , i.e. produces more fuel, than he can consume at that same rate, which is what my goal with my gasifier is, at this point.

@tinman
HHO is very high energy, indeed, much higher than gasoline or propane, and what I wrote above pertains to what you are asking. what is the displacement of the motor, what RPM do you wish to operate it at, to deliver what ft. lbs of torque... to do what? We tend to forget we buy fuel by the litre, but we vaporize that fuel. WE BUILD HHO, by the litre of vapor. I think I read once 1 litre of water will produce 1800 cubic litres of HHO vapor. If your rolling at 3000 RPM, with a displacement of 2 or 3 litres, even once mixed with air, your right.. it's a lot... and there are other considerations - imagine the hydrogen embrittlement going on in any engine that is consuming 50l per min - but as you've shown (with exhaust recycling), and as my buddy has shown alternative fuel additives... one can get away from buying any fuel, it's been done, and you will do it, I'm confident of that! And if it comes down to setting up a still, I wanna see the plans... whether I make an ounce of fuel or not.

As far as numbers go, I haven't measured them but so far it looks like with my gasfier 15 cubic FEET of dry gas + 1-2 lpm HHO will yield me about 3000 watts output continuous. This equates to a 20 lb sack of wood chips and my 110V HHO unit drawing maybe 3A. 3 Hr.s runtime min. We shall see... but I ain't addin any gas!!! Even if I have to scrub out the tar every month haha



~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on November 22 2012 19:11:44
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