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 Transformers, Generators and Electric Motors.
 Lensless generator
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TinMan
Advanced Member


4082 Posts

Posted - August 27 2012 :  02:53:38  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After a recent discovery,i will be putting my all into building a true lensless generator.
I have seen many that although they may speed up under load,they dont produce much current.
All generators i know of work by induceing a magnetic field into a coil.This ofcourse causes the coil to produce a backEMF when the coil is loaded.

My system will work in the totaly opposite way,in that it will remove the magnetic field that is already in the coil.

My first test show that it should work as planed,and no backEMF will be placed on the rotor-but on the coil core itsef.

I will do a short vidio soon showing the pprincible behind the generator.
From this you will see how i will be removeing the backEMF from the rotor.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 27 2012 :  05:03:19  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All ears and cannot wait mate!

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marianek
New Member



USA
32 Posts

Posted - August 27 2012 :  06:04:36  Show Profile Send marianek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi.Yes .yes can't. Wait
Greetings.
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 27 2012 :  06:48:17  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Go for it mate...looking forward to your video...^^

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mehran4868
Junior Member



79 Posts

Posted - August 27 2012 :  07:04:18  Show Profile Send mehran4868 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
cant wait to see your video.

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The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination "Albert Einstein"

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 27 2012 :  07:31:34  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am converting the vidio now to keep the upload time to youtube down.
The vidio is just to show the priciple of how it will be constructed.
From this you will see why there will be no backEMF placed on the rotor.The backEMF will be between the coil and fixed magnet.
The rotor is purely to switch the magnetic field back and forth-so in a sence,we are switching a perminant magnet on and off

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 27 2012 :  08:58:46  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A build always starts with reserch-so here is part of my reserch into the project.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 27 2012 :  09:16:29  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Marianek,and welcome to IAEC.
I hope you enjoy your time here,and find any help you need on what we do.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Jet
Junior Member



Canada
129 Posts

Posted - August 27 2012 :  10:16:40  Show Profile  Visit Jet's Homepage Send Jet a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TinMan

After a recent discovery, ...



Hi TM,
Very educative video. Thanks for doing that.
I'm looking forward for more on this ingenious way to control the magnetic flow.

Jet
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 27 2012 :  10:50:07  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi mate,

Nice video, i think i know where your going with this setup "i think"...lol
And in that "i think" observation...
Is the energy that will be produced more than the energy needed to overcome the magnet/core drag...???
Go for it...^^

Edit:...waow, you gotten 2 thumbs down in like 30 minutes...
You get thumbs down and i get marked as spam...lol

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Edited by - TimberJack on August 27 2012 10:52:53
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 27 2012 :  18:58:04  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TJ
Believe it or not-there is no such thing as magnetic core drag.
With or without the core,the power to turn the rotor remains the same.
The only reason you get what you refer to as core drag,is because people use a rotor that is to lite.
This causes magnetic coging,which in turn is changed to vibration.This is where you use more power to turn the rotor.
If that rotor is heavy enough,the magnetic coging and vibration is eliminated.

There will be many that argue with this,but lets think about it.
The force it takes to pull the magnet away from the core is exactly the same as the force that is pulling the magnet to the core (every action has an equal and opposite reaction)
There for the net gain and loss is zero.
So from this we can see that we can have 1 or 100 coils-the power required to turn the rotor remains the same.

Now here is where people get caught with this.They make up a coil and place it near the rotor,and even with the coil open and haveing a heavy flywheel-the rotor slows down?
There is a reason for this that almost everyone over look's.
But the answer is right there in 49er's vidios in heating copper with a rotating magnetic field.
It is the copper in the wire that is causeing the drag on the rotor,not the iron core.
As my copper wire is far enough away from the rotating magnets-there will be no drag on the rotor.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 27 2012 :  22:15:57  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM,
I follow you on what your saying but i have done some testing with core only setups and theres a big difference using cores and turn the rotor or no cores and turn the rotor.
So, even without the copper wires theres a difference...
I can only make that drag less by using a even and not even configuration...
You know like the magnets/cores configuration used in those washing machines...i think it was...
54 cores and 42 coils...with this the drag on core and magnets if minimum...even if it has no copper wires as coils on it...;-)

Reading your last post again, seems to me that your talking about the lenz law effect on inductors in general...???

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***Possibilities Within The Impossible***

Edited by - TimberJack on August 27 2012 22:17:03
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Darrell
Junior Member



USA
108 Posts

Posted - August 28 2012 :  00:33:16  Show Profile Send Darrell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now this sounds like it's going to be a cool video to watch. I can't wait to see the new build!

"D"
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 28 2012 :  00:34:34  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TJ
No not the lenz effect, I'm talking about drag you get when passing a magnet over copper or aluminum
And on the iron or ferrite cores- they don't create drag- it is the coging effect that causes a vibrational drag
Use a heavy fly wheel and there will be no drag
And a big yes on having uneven numbers of magnets to coils
This helps take away that vibrational loss
Oh an I always have my two dislikers lol- they dislike most of my vidios
There my own stalkers lol


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 28 2012 :  00:39:59  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TJ-I did notice you come up as spam on my YouTube a couple of times lol
I just keep marking them as not spam-- you bad bad spamer you lol

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 28 2012 :  06:52:22  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM,

And i wasnt talking about this here below...lol
"No not the lenz effect, I'm talking about drag you get when passing a magnet over copper or aluminum"

I was refering to the drag from a magnet on a core...heavy flywheel or not you will feel it...
Well, the motor side will...have done this test plenty of times with my Ultra Large PM with that almost 20 kg flywheel...
Trust me mate, theres a big difference in input amps when just the cores are added...and this was with a wooden rotor...;-)
So no Eddy`s here mate...
The flywheel does makes it run smooth...very smooth...
Yeh, U-tube...dont care about what peeps think of me...i just do and write what i think and feel...lol
But whoever is doing that needs a new hobby and some TLC form his parents...lol


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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 28 2012 :  08:12:31  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TJ
Ok here is what we do in reguards to our diference in opinion on core drag.
I will put forth my argument on why i believe that there is no core drag.
And you put forth you argument as to why there is core drag.
From this we may be able to improve on the simple rotor setup.
Reguardless to my test and yours-lets look at why we believe what we do in reguards to the physics side of thing's.

Ok -my thoughts are this.
As the magnet on the rotor approaches the core,a gain in energy to the rotor is had by the attraction of the magnet to the core.As the very same amount of energy is lost when the magnet is leaveing the core-then the net result in energy used must be zero.
Now what you have to keep in mind also is that there will be no core eddie currents ,as the core already has a magnetic field within it from the fixed perminent magnet.
So these are my thoughts on core drag.
So let me know your thoughts as to why you believe there is core drag,as i might be missing something here that i might be able to eliminate befor i go and build this machine.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 28 2012 :  11:56:00  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM,

"Reguardless to my test and yours-lets look at why we believe what we do in reguards to the physics side of thing's"
Well mate, i can only say and tell what i`ve seen on my own Pulse Motors.

"As the magnet on the rotor approaches the core,a gain in energy to the rotor is had by the attraction of the magnet to the core.As the very same amount of energy is lost when the magnet is leaveing the core-then the net result in energy used must be zero."
Well, in theory that makes alot of sence but as you and i know that not everything that makes sence in theory makes sence in practice.
And magnets are one of them, thats why you find alot of Magnetic OU Devices on paper that wont work in practice.
If what you wrote is true in practice than i would have a OU pm a long time ago...
If what you wrote was the case than theres no need for even and uneven magnet/core configuration for minimum core/drag effect...
I will do another test on this pretty soon, as soon as my Lab is abit tidy up and i have more space...^^
You should build your setup anyway mate because theres isnt a better teacher than "Practice"...;-)
You could build a test setup with say 8 core and 8 magnets...run it with and without them cores and see from there...

I`ll say it again bro, just make a simple test setup...^^
Seeing is believing and you might find something out that i havent seen in my PM`s...;-)

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***Possibilities Within The Impossible***

Edited by - TimberJack on August 28 2012 12:01:56
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 30 2012 :  08:41:17  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TJ
Yes-still much testing to do.I have just scored 3 boxes of stuff from work-lol yea more stuff.
In it is all kinds of goodies from rotor,s flywheels,magneto's,gears of all size's and much more.
Man i have to find that battery charger for my camera.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - August 31 2012 :  06:02:26  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey TinMan
I’ve been spending a lot of my time working on gen coils for the barrel motor I built for the PMBO.
I had a bare core so I chucked it up.
I Agree, magnetic pull coming and going, gain/loss net result -0-. However it does cause a vibration.
Air coils give the least drag and the least charging. (needs steel backing or core)
When the ohms are higher than 20ohms, the time verses the voltage gain from using more wire isn’t worth it. At 40ohms it takes over 30sec to charge my caps.
The best atm is a tri-filer coil hooked up delta config. Highest drag. LOL
Just though Id share that.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - September 03 2012 :  07:39:00  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi guys
So i got the afternoon and evening to myself,as the wife is doing the late shift at work and the kids have bailed lol.
So as the dogs dont talk much,i headed of down the shed and done some testing in reguard's to core drag on rotating magnetic fields(rotor).

Now first i tried just the bare core-and did get a small amount of core drag.
But wait until you see what happens when you place a magnet on the core so as it is in attraction to the magnets on the rotor.
Now msn-about that vibration--yes i agree. But wait until you hear how much vibration is on my small setup,and see how much more current the motor draws.
Uploading vidio now.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - September 03 2012 :  09:43:08  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So if eddie currents forming within a core when being induced with a magnetic field,and cause rotor drag-what happens if the core already has a magnetic field within it?


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - September 06 2012 :  10:32:25  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will be useing ufopolotics ufo motor design for the prime mover for the generator-with a small tinman twist lol.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - September 06 2012 :  11:48:25  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL a TinMan twist.

Core; Im using a .5dia "C" core simular to 1 of Ed L. designs. When I put a few .5X.5 round neos on the bare core it sounded like I ws beating it with a sledge hammer. LOL
Rotor; I have 2 on my desk at work I keep stairing at woundering what I can do with this. When the guys catch me thinking they ask "hello...where are you" and start laughing.
Cant wait to see what you come up with.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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totoalas
Junior Member



Macao
168 Posts

Posted - September 07 2012 :  00:06:33  Show Profile Send totoalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
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Hi tinman
this idea from robert33 added neodyne magnet on the rotor of a vacuum cleaner motor and using a 220 v ac relay produced ac volts
Will wait for your mod before I dismantle the coils
totoalas
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - September 07 2012 :  00:27:21  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm
There no good sitting on the desk at work lol

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - September 14 2012 :  09:52:32  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM,

Nice videos...about that core/drag stuff...when testing with one core only its usually not really noticeable...
When you build it with more coil/cores you will know for sure and i never used magnets on the back ends of my cores...
I did try them once but i could see any difference except that my output was less than without a magnet...???
Anyway...lol
A Ufo Politics motor as drive side...sound cool...i`ve seen some stuff of his...;-)

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***Possibilities Within The Impossible***
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - September 14 2012 :  12:23:27  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Haveing trouble burning the armature-even though my amp's are less than one at 12 vot's,and those motors are designed to run at 40 amp's @12 volts??
I wound it diferent to the ufo motor design,and i dont have any problem with the input side-only the output armature is burning?--lots of sparks and arcing aswell?
I know the output voltage is higher than 240 volts,because it will blow a 240 volt neon to pieces.
Im working at trying to stop the brushes burning out?-but not haveing much luck.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - September 14 2012 :  14:24:44  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well mate, good news is that the energy coming out is high enough...now to fix that sparkings and arcing part...
Maybe adjust the angle on the brushes, that usually help out abit...
Maybe its because of the way you have wire the rotor...???
Think you just have to look at how you wound that rotor and follow how the energy flows into it and especially follow on how the induced magnetic field is collapsing and maybe find the problem there...

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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - September 18 2012 :  16:10:01  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey TM,

Any luck with those brushes...???

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