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TinMan
Advanced Member


4082 Posts

Posted - August 10 2012 :  09:40:48  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok well i will start this section off with a vidio you would have seen befor.
I have a feeling that there may be some input into this generator comeing soon.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 10 2012 :  09:41:28  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is a follow up vidio.
These are on my old channel on youtube


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 10 2012 :  16:58:43  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM,

Yeh, the "Phone Generator" one is a nice one to...^^

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 10 2012 :  20:57:11  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks mate, Can you get me a nice clear pic of the "shorting mech" and a little notation on how it works, from looking more at mine, I can see there seems to be some differences between the 2 we have but a lot of similarities, we may find mine has been "restored" *cough* at some stage and maybe missing a few pieces... , I found that the old method of rubbing a magnet across the ends of my bar magnets has increased voltage by about 10-15volts, have given it a grease and oil change..

I would assume the winding size is going to be a reasonably close to the same gauge, at least enough for me to order some more wire and give it further rebirth, I can see a lot of the varnish is missing so I am guessing there is a lot of shorting across the windings dropping the voltage, a quick calculation of windings I think it's some where between 1500-2000 winds per side, so the wire is going to be cheap enough, just dreading winding a few thousand turns lol. But firstly I want to take a look at the shorting mothod as you were saying, may just be the key it is missing...

Thanks again for the help TM, talk soon

Kult.

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 11 2012 :  04:07:43  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kultus
I can do better than a picture,i'll do a vidio showing it working and how it works.
Will take some time to upload,but will be up by tonight.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 11 2012 :  04:15:52  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LEGEND!!! Thanks a million mate, the more I look at the contacts, I see solder I see poorly cut edges ... Me thinks someone tried to do some shonky restoration work... lets hope I can try to undo the damage here lol ....

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 11 2012 :  07:27:13  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is that description vidio Kultus


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 11 2012 :  07:47:37  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That was great thank TM, I hate to be a bother but I can see exactly where this once was on mine, I have the Mech in the crank handle as you do and the same type of forward - back movement when I crank it, (knowing you've had it apart once before) Do you have a camera with Macro on it ? can I get you to take some shots of all sides, purely of the Points Mech on the back, I am going to have to create some from scratch.... Measured my Ohms coil seems to be intact so rewinding isn't going to be an issue now, but these points are my missing link. *sigh* Would be a Massive help if you can get me off int he right direction, I can see a lot from the vid, just want to have some clear shots to show the Father inlaw and give us something clear to work with.

Cheers mate, you've been the biggest help thus far :D

Kult.

_______________________________________________________
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Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 11 2012 :  07:51:49  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM,

Nice video on this old puppy...^^
309 ohm...at higher speed it should give you the speed up effect...o.O
Thats just awesome to see them using coil shorting used soooooo long ago...
Thats what i like about these old machines, everything has been done we just need to re-discoverd them and improve it where we can...
Thanks for the insight on that phone gen...^^

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 11 2012 :  08:56:49  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TJ
Yes,and all done with mechanical switching-no transistors to smoke up--they just dont build them like they use to.
Kultus-i will take some close up shot's for you--as soon as i find the charger for my $600.oo dollar camera that has gone missing?????

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 11 2012 :  09:12:17  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oww I hope you can find it soon ... sucks when you lose things on an upside ..I'm having lots of fun finding things in the container I forgot I had, How many microwaves you think I took apart.. well I found 12 Caps So far lol ..

Will be hanging out for them pics mate, Cheers for all the help.

Kult.

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 11 2012 :  18:25:04  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK I've watched your vid now about 10 times TM lol ....trying to fathom the workings I've cut n paste a photo from your vid for discussion



The portion I have marked with red arrows and lines is this 1 single section ?

The part I have marked in blue this is the second point contact from what I see it looks insulated from the rest ?

the coil shorts when the crank is wound ? (in the "depressed" moment of the crank)

Cheers again, just trying to understand the way the points are set up might save you hunting for the camera for the time being. :D

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Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 12 2012 :  00:21:06  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is a quick Vid of mine and it's internals ...



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If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Edited by - Kultus on August 12 2012 00:21:28
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 12 2012 :  05:37:28  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kultus.
I have pulled this place apart looking for that rudy camera charger-and as yet ,havent found it.
I will have to make you another vidio,as it's kind of a bit tricky to explain.
But basicly the rotor shaft is two insulated halfs.One end of the windings is hooked to one half of the shaft,and the other end of the windings is hooked to the other half of the shaft.
1 half of the shaft is grounded through a brass bush,and the other is insulated from ground (at the top red arrow in your pic)
The insulated end of the shaft is shorted to ground by the other shaft the crank handle is on.This is the shaft at the top red arrow in your pic,and it is the one that slide's left to right when cranking.It is this shaft that has the needle which acts like a set of points and shorts the coil.
I wont get the vidio done today,as im running out of time.But i will get it done tomorow after work.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 12 2012 :  06:05:29  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Where you say "1 half of the shaft is grounded through a brass bush,and the other is insulated from ground (at the top red arrow in your pic)" did you mean Bottom red arrow, you've mentioned the top arrow twice, and on mine the commutator is the bottom one ..

Also your's shifts left to right, mine does not... I am wondering if I am just missing a piece from the metal brushes in the box like I mentioned in the Video I uploaded

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Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Edited by - Kultus on August 12 2012 06:07:23
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 12 2012 :  07:19:56  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yea sorry.The rotor shaft is bottom red arrow.
The part you have outlined in red is insulated from the ground-frame.
On the bottom red arrow you can see the shaft is resting up against a brass bush-plate thingy lol.
The second set of points arnt needed realy-but they would insulate the machine from any back spikes through the line when the coil was shorted--just a safty thing i think.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 12 2012 :  07:22:03  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh the second set of points are where the top of your blue line and the bottom of the red line finish together

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 12 2012 :  08:26:12  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok I think I've got it all now, I'll wait for your next Vid and then I'll get to building, Thanks again for all the help TM :)

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If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 12 2012 :  09:08:37  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
not my pic, just nicked it off Ebay lol .. but this gives a clear indication of points yes ? :D just need a few clear shots of how the pieces are shaped and I'll be on my way, even if you can take them off Tm and do a short vid showcasing the pieces to the points would be a massive help so I can get a keen idea of their shapes...Cheers once again

Kult.



_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Edited by - Kultus on August 12 2012 18:41:40
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 12 2012 :  10:34:52  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kulutus,

Very nice magneto...
Those are some shinny horse shoe magnets...;-)
They look like Neodynuim#65279; magnets...lol


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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 12 2012 :  18:40:52  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey TJ :) I thought they were till I read the Patent date on the hinge on the door of the little box .. 1886!!! No neo's back then lol

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 12 2012 :  18:53:55  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL Kultus,

1886...lol...thats just abit to early for them Neo`s...lol
But cant you put some blocks Neo`s instead of those horse shoe magnets...???
It should be possible to do that and it would make some very interesting energy...;-)

Btw, can you like post some pics of that beauty...^^...if thats possible...
Or have you lost your adapter to charge your camera like the TM did...lol

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Edited by - TimberJack on August 12 2012 18:55:45
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 12 2012 :  20:46:32  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can do that, I'm just measuring out the blocks to wind my mini pancake coil for my Tesla coil right now, but I will get around to it for you today :)

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 12 2012 :  23:29:51  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ENNJOY TJ :D














_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Edited by - Kultus on August 12 2012 23:35:18
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 13 2012 :  09:17:44  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kultus,

Very very nice and thanks for them...^^
It looks awesome, those oldies always looks so awesome...;-)

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Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - August 13 2012 :  10:56:45  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey kultus,
That a nice generator !
I've been looking for me one locally but, I guess to get one, I'll eventually have to order me one off Ebay ... They look like fun things to experiment with .
Tinman,
After you order a new camera charger / the old one will magically reappear ... At least that the way things usually work out for me , LOL


=============================================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...

===================================================================================================

"Throughout space there is energy ... It it a mere question of time when man will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of Nature" Nicola Tesla

Edited by - Kudzu on August 13 2012 11:06:14
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 13 2012 :  18:04:29  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At Kudzu,

Thing is about ordering one of those from ebay is that you will pay more for shipping than for the thing it self...=.=
I`ve been wanting to buy one but the cost always kept me from not buying...lol

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 14 2012 :  09:36:26  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No-still havnt found my charger for the camera--most depresing
It will be in the last place i look i guess,as when i have found it -i wont be looking any more lol
I will try and get some decent pics with my iphone kultus,and post them here.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 14 2012 :  12:20:54  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL TM,

Yep, its always in the ultra last place that you will look...=.=...so odd..;-)
Pics, pics and more pics TM...wheres the pics...lol

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 14 2012 :  17:42:37  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cheers Tinman, I'll be keeping an eye on the post for em.. :D

_______________________________________________________
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Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 15 2012 :  00:25:13  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol TJ- where's the pic's-- lol

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 15 2012 :  00:52:57  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think TJ likes Dynamos just a Liiitle too much rofl :D

_______________________________________________________
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Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 15 2012 :  08:02:56  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol--pics for him-vidios for me lol
I am uploading another vidio as the iphone pics were crap.
It's in HD so it says about 6 hours to load to youtube lol.
This way you can see very clearly how it is set up-and should be able to take some screen shots if needed.
You probably already know-but if you dont,this is how to do it the easy way
Pause vidio at pic you want-push !print screen on your key board.
Open windows paint and push edit then paste-wala -one pic.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 15 2012 :  08:47:10  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Except if you've modified window and like mine have to push crtl- print screen lol Thanks heaps make I made up a set of "poor mans" points they produce a very small spark but not much reaction on the output, so I'm guessing the adjustment on the top points is very fine ?

I'm on it asap, but the only bad thing about living in the desert is there is nothing out here so I have to rely on ebay and mail order if I need anything So if you notice a gap in my vids I'm more than likely waiting on parts in the mail, today is a perfect example, needed a hole saw, spend $70 on a top notch 1 shank and 1 blade "Bosch power change" hole saw, because it was all I could get... bought the wrong size, opened the pack before I realized now back down on sat to spend another $50 on the right size saw blade.... that or wait 6 weeks for mail :/ DAMN THE OUTBACK >>>> DAMN YOU BUNNINGS lol only have local small stores

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Edited by - Kultus on August 15 2012 08:48:07
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 15 2012 :  11:51:24  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL...yeh man...those stuff are cooooool...;-)

quote:
Originally posted by Kultus

I think TJ likes Dynamos just a Liiitle too much rofl :D

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Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 15 2012 :  11:53:31  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL...been doing that for a loooooong time mate but it has to be HQ video...lol
Looking forward to see that video...so wheres the video mate...???...lol

quote:
Originally posted by TinMan

Lol--pics for him-vidios for me lol
I am uploading another vidio as the iphone pics were crap.
It's in HD so it says about 6 hours to load to youtube lol.
This way you can see very clearly how it is set up-and should be able to take some screen shots if needed.
You probably already know-but if you dont,this is how to do it the easy way
Pause vidio at pic you want-push !print screen on your key board.
Open windows paint and push edit then paste-wala -one pic.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69



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***Possibilities Within The Impossible***
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 15 2012 :  18:24:37  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
here is the vidio kultus
Hope it helps out



swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 15 2012 :  18:25:32  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TJ-there's the vidio lol
Where's yours??? lol

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 15 2012 :  18:31:47  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM,

Nice high quality video...its worth waiting for...^^
Yeh man, i made some nice SS...;-)
Thanks for uploading it...


Wheres mine???...i dont know bro...someone stole all my vids...lol

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Edited by - TimberJack on August 15 2012 18:32:05
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xcontrol
New Member



Australia
3 Posts

Posted - August 16 2012 :  00:42:41  Show Profile Send xcontrol a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gday All,

I found this when reading on some different magneto systems and thought it may be of interest.

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The pdf is on magneto telephone systems and has a parts breakdown of a 3 and 5 bar mag. Interesting even for just the nostalgic reference.

Cheers.


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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 16 2012 :  01:20:18  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks very much for the Xcontrol, And WELCOME TO IAEC, glad you came to join the fun :D That PDF was a fun look through, Got so much going on here, trying to play catch up after moving, but getting the magneto running is something I am working on, also trying to win a couple more on ebay atm, if I can get cheap enough (So no bidding on any this week !!! lol )

are you here to start a project ? if so whats your first build going to be ?

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If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 16 2012 :  01:29:42  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TJ- some one STOL all mi vidios

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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xcontrol
New Member



Australia
3 Posts

Posted - August 16 2012 :  02:24:48  Show Profile Send xcontrol a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kultus, like so many others here I have many electronic projects going on and not enough time. For my first project I will video some of my coil/pancake winders that I would like to share with the forum.
Thanks for the welcome.

--- Proof is in practice not always the theory ---
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 16 2012 :  03:31:40  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great can't wait to see your ideas in the middle of working out my first pancake winder so your just in time for me :D can't wait to see what else you got going on too...

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 16 2012 :  06:43:41  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey kultus-was that vidio any help?-or no good>?

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - August 16 2012 :  06:57:54  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No that was plenty help ty mate, Glad you point out the dam thingy on the side poking out .... a Oil Funnel, I could for the life of me work out what the heck that was lol, but yea great Vid mate, got all the points and parts worked out now, I know whats insulated and more importantly the shapes of every thing ... Buying a drill press tomorrow, super cheap auto have a Ebay shop ... $69 free del anywhere in aust for a drill press .. I'm all over that like a fat kid on cake, damn local hardware store put the exact same one away for me today .... for $209.... guess what I'm not going to go get from the hardware store tomorrow .... ***hole price gouging mother******* *Cough cough*

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 16 2012 :  07:07:24  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol -now $69 is a great price-and with delivery.
I think they guna sh-t when they find out where you live lol-it will cost them more in delivery than the drill itself lol.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 16 2012 :  09:39:44  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi XC,

Welcome on board...^^
Thanks for that PDF...very nice "1936"...magneto...;-)


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***Possibilities Within The Impossible***
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TimberJack
Senior Member



824 Posts

Posted - August 16 2012 :  09:43:02  Show Profile Send TimberJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kult,
A drill press is a very good move...theres so much you can do with that...^^

At TM
Yeh mate, someone been stealing all my vids...lol

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***Possibilities Within The Impossible***

Edited by - TimberJack on August 16 2012 09:43:31
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 16 2012 :  19:23:51  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
looking forward to kultus getting his little generator going

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - August 17 2012 :  02:13:36  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Kultus,
That's a nice lookin drill press , looked like it has a keyless chuck ... Every time I loose my key, I threaten to get me one , LOL
If you need to tap a hole.
Am old trick my machine shop teacher showed us ... After you drill a hole with the work piece still clamped on the drill press table , start your tap with the drill press on slow speed and cutting oil ... You got to be quick to shut the drill off but, it will make perfectly square hole's every time ! Once you get the hang of this method, you'll never want to hand start a tapped thread again .
Just be careful with the brittle tap's from china , they tend to break by just looking at them , lol
OF course you probably already know that method / I said it was an old trick, not a secret , lol

=============================================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...

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"Throughout space there is energy ... It it a mere question of time when man will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of Nature" Nicola Tesla
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