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 Charging the run battery
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ron_o
Moderator


United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 13 2012 :  18:31:20  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is it possible to charge the run battery on a pulse motor at the same time that its powering the motor.

I believe the answer is "yes" and that it can be done quite simply.
It will not be an overunity system but it does prolong the run time of the battery.
The problem is that each pulse motor is not built equally and a fair amount of tuning is required ( thats why this is posted in "Concept Ideas" ).

It requires an additional inductor* , capacitor* and high voltage/ high speed diode.

* hence tuning

Where's the circuit ? its been on the internet for years , just look up battery desulphators and look at the pulse output stage. Use one coil to drive the motor and the second coil with cap and diode to invert the back emf and then feed this directly to the battery.


ron

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ccass15n
Average Member



USA
218 Posts

Posted - June 13 2012 :  19:24:08  Show Profile Send ccass15n a Private Message  Reply with Quote
to my knowledge those use all 555 timer or solid state devices to pulse it right?
you can deff. put voltages into the run battery but while it is operating will have different effects than if you did it while it is not operating..

there are many circuits out there using the bedini system that try to send some energy back to the run battery, this is solely all i have been working on over the years...

i found it best to fill up a cap, turn the entire bedini system off, then dump the cap, then turn the bedini system back on, keep doing this fast enough while the rotor is still spinning and you will see some good results but still not self sustaining, YET!

i have made some new coils took them apart and now i am trying something new, but here are some circuits that could work with just pulsing the cap into the run battery,these are the pictures of some that i have tried out, the second picture is the diagram of the one that worked the best, it is a normally closed relay that when triggered opens, and then makes a new circuit, this new circuit would dump the cap into the run battery, works very good










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ccass15n
Average Member



USA
218 Posts

Posted - June 13 2012 :  19:31:07  Show Profile Send ccass15n a Private Message  Reply with Quote
but in my personal opinion i think to achieve this you do need a rotor type device

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - June 14 2012 :  07:20:22  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi guys
Thought you might be interested in one of my very first circuit mod's to the ssg
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And here is a vidio of it running-this was way back in the teep day's lol september 2011 (watch the amp draw when i loop the circuit


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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - June 14 2012 :  07:26:24  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The twin backEMF circuit also dose this,aswell as charge another battery.There is a simple circuit mod with this circuit that uses only one battery.
I have also just discovered another mod to the ssg circuit that will charge a third battery that dosnt pull anymore amp's from the run battery-infact it reduces the amp draw a bit.That circuit and vidio will be posted in the pulse motor buildoff comp lol.

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - June 14 2012 :  07:33:40  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh there was one other thing-Poppy replicated the twin backEMF design-and here was his result's.
I am not sure where poppy ended up with this one.



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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 14 2012 :  08:58:48  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry Guys , but your missing the point. the reason the "classic" Beedini circuit uses a second battery is because the back emf is reversed with respect to the current that originally formed it. The method i have described will directly reverse the already reversed back emf ( i.e so now its the right way round ) and it can be directly connected to the run battery. No need for relays / 555 trigger circuits.... it's direct.

In fact , it may even be possible to do away with the trigger coil !

ron
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 14 2012 :  09:07:58  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is an idea of what i'm reffering too :-

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please note that this circuit contains a p channel mosfet so its "upside down" , but read the how it works section

ron
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 14 2012 :  13:47:30  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe i started this topic off on the "wrong foot" so to speak . Yes , i know that members such as TinMan have come up with many " thinking outside the square " circuit designs to divert energy back into the run battery , all of which work.
It's just that this "concept" is so simple.

Here's another example:-

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ron
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ccass15n
Average Member



USA
218 Posts

Posted - June 14 2012 :  14:21:38  Show Profile Send ccass15n a Private Message  Reply with Quote
why would you want to directly reverse the bemf, the bedini system is designed to use this bemf because it is more efficient and it fixes bad batteries

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 14 2012 :  14:39:42  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ccass15n

A very good question, but you can still "fix" bad batteries even when the bemf is reversed ( it makes no difference to the battery ). The Bedini monopole motor would be just a motor if it did not charge a second battery , the reason it charges a second battery is because you have to "loose" the bemf somewhere , so why not use a battery , after all it looks impressive . With respect to more efficient , i would suggest that Dougs ( 49er's) solid state chargers are far more efficient as chargers.

ron
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ccass15n
Average Member



USA
218 Posts

Posted - June 15 2012 :  00:44:12  Show Profile Send ccass15n a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i agree with you on that the bedini motor would just be a motor if it didnt charge another battery, this is the only system i have ever worked with, made, and tried to learn a lot about so i didnt know you could do the same stuff to a battery with out using bemf.. 49er does have some awesome solid state chargers, some of the best i have seen! lol, i am deff. going to look into what you are talking about some more and hopefully try one or two designs out

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - June 15 2012 :  07:24:13  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ron-o
Ok im a little confused here (not the first time lol)When you say the backEMF is reversed on the bedini motor's-what do you mean exactly?
With the simple ssg circuit,the positive go's into the run coil as a low voltage high current -and exit's the run coil as a high voltage low current.In this system the voltage isnt reversed-just transformed into a higher voltage.
The reason the charge battery negative is hooked to the run battery positive is because when the coil is switch off, the start of the run coil go's to a negative state.
This is why i use true current flow and not conventional current flow when designing circuit's-because in some cases it give's you a better understanding of what is going on in circuit's like the ssg.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 15 2012 :  15:54:07  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

If you look at the Bedini circuit as posted above the charge battery circuit is effectively made up of a coil a rectifier diode and of course the charge battery itself ( please ignore the relay ). If i were to disconnect the rectifier diode from the collector / coil connection and then i reconnected the "loose" end of the rectifier diode to the run battery negative . The result is ... no current flow. This being the case then we now know that the run battery is not charging the charge battery by the action of the transistor switching alone. When the coil is energised by the action of the transistor switching on current flows into the coil ( initially at a high rate then slowing off ) at some point the coil becomes saturated. When the transistor switches off the magnetic field / flux stored by the soil collapses
and this released energy is converted back into an electric current BUT remember its now producing current so the current flow is opposite to what produced it , hence the need for the charge battery to be reversed with respect to the run battery.

The circuits i have listed reverse the back emf allowing a direct connection.

Please take a look at the following patents ( also note the application dates )

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The reason i posted this method as a concept is because i have not invented it ( unlike yourself TinMan , with your trigger coil collector circuit )
I have just seen a way of reversing the back emf so that the circuit only requires one battery

ron
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 15 2012 :  16:07:51  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi CCass15n

You will find that these circuits work very well , there are more modern circuits about that use n channel mosfets ( which are a lot cheaper than p channel versions )

Now , here's a question for you. If a battery is charged by a radient energy spike ( as we are told it is ) then why would you want to convert and store it in a capacitor ( the capacitor can only store a "conventional " charge )

Also since you like the energy from the vacuum video's , i'm sure you have seen the so called radient energy discharge from a capacitor . Have you actually asked yourself exactly what you are seeing?

ron
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ccass15n
Average Member



USA
218 Posts

Posted - June 15 2012 :  22:18:52  Show Profile Send ccass15n a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hmmm... well as far as i knew and understood, a capacitor will accept any charge you put into it no matter what it is doing, for example you can be using the cap to run a device as well as put a charge on the cap at the same time, its difficult to do this with a battery, i believe you store the charge into a capacitor because it is a different type of energy coming out of the ssg than what is going in, bedini says that you cant take the radiant spike and put it into the run battery directly because the run battery is using a different form of energy and wont take the radiant form of the energy when running... storing the energy in the cap changes it from radiant to conventional and then you can dump it into the run battery because the run battery is using conventional energy to start with...

but personally in the video where he makes the so called "radiant" energy discharge, i just think thats shorting out the cap that has stored energy, nothing special..

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 16 2012 :  17:18:50  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ccass15n

A capacitor , shall we say has a faster response time than a battery , therefore it can "catch" more of the voltage spike.

Different form of energy ............ Hmmm . It is true that the SSG runs on " smooth " DC from the battery and that the output is " different " BUT only because the output is a high voltage pulse with "ringing" , its not another form of electricity. As a matter of fact the output from a conventional car ignition coil produces a similar type of output "waveform" to the SSG.

If you did ( were it possible, but you cannot because the voltage pulse is inverted with respect to the run battery ) to feed the high voltage spike back into the SSG it would probably damage the transistor or just cause the motor to "miss-fire"

The capacitor discharge , this we agree on " nothing special " . However a pulse of electromagnetic radiation is released in the form of an emp burst .

ron
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - June 16 2012 :  23:18:24  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@ ron_o

I am, and have been in agreement with all that you say in this thread. The perpetuation of thought behind Bedini's circuit containing some new form of energy, is well, let's just say "very unproven".

In regards to The Home Power article, have you seen this circuit, a high powered variant? I believe it interesting, and I want to build it.. but I also think his logic on choice of inductor cores is flawed.

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Ron,

Have a read over it and tell us what you think!

I have been actively using the Tesla switch Oscillator as outlined by 49'er with success. I would also like to venture down this road, as it is different approach. See how they compare.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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ccass15n
Average Member



USA
218 Posts

Posted - June 17 2012 :  00:17:27  Show Profile Send ccass15n a Private Message  Reply with Quote
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 17 2012 :  08:34:50  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kcarring

I have quickly read the article in your link ( so if i have missed anything please let me know ) , i will be back later today.

Ihe comcast circuit is not the same as the type of circuit as in the link that i posted. This circuit is more of a pulsed battery charger ( the same effect could be acheived with a half wave rectifier circuit using a suitably sized transformer and rectifier )

The transformer is wound as a "pulse" type device and is not at all critical ( assuming correct output voltage ratio )
I personally would have used an high permability ferrite double "E" cored transformer ( 300 to 500 watt rating ) and in view of the lowish switching frequency would have experimented to see if a gap was benificial between the cores.

I personally would not bother with this circuit.

Doug's Tesla Switch charger is in actual fact two chargers in one . If you look at the circuit ( at this moment forget about the inductor and rectifier ) we have a 24 volt battery across a transistor and the 12 volt charge battery. Each time the transistor switches on a burst of current flows into the charge battery ... charge circuit #1 ( BTW its the switching speed and "inertia" of the battery that prevent "meltdown" )
The second part of the charger is of course the back emf high voltage pulse which dislodges any sulphation on the plates,
which is effectively superimposed onto the tail end of the high current dc burst.

ron
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 17 2012 :  08:46:57  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ccass15n

Thats an intresting circuit , are you suggesting that the Bedini SSG could be wired that way ?

A "modern" version ( using n-channel fet ) is available from Jaycar Electronics , its based on an article in the Silicon Chip and Everyday Practical Electronics under "Battery Zapper"

ron
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 17 2012 :  14:35:05  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is a link that shows ringing in an ignition coil

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See "solid state ignition"

ron
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ccass15n
Average Member



USA
218 Posts

Posted - June 18 2012 :  02:07:27  Show Profile Send ccass15n a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i thought you might like it, it was above me, i tend to always mess up 555 timers and everything so i dont use them lol

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49er
Administrator



USA
4424 Posts

Posted - June 18 2012 :  13:36:31  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron and ccass

Found out a lot from that and made me look up this and it helped me so I will post it and Thanks. I did find my magnifier too LOL

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Doug
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 18 2012 :  15:03:57  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Doug

Are you going to try inductive power transmission ?

ron
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - June 19 2012 :  00:23:41  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The big problem with cap dump systems is that it is another loss in the system
Every component used is a loss- so the simpler the better I think
I am still confused as to why conventional current flow is used instead of true current flow
If you look at something simple like the ssg circuit using true current flow- you see a whole different machine
It is well known and also stated in many text book's and the net, that true current flow should be used to fully understand electronic circuit's
I have also found that potential difference in voltage dosnt mean that what your seeing is actualy what you have
I will be interested to see what becomes of this thread and what systems will eventuate from it
Truly interesting Ron

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49er
Administrator



USA
4424 Posts

Posted - June 19 2012 :  09:25:05  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron

No not at this time. I wanted to see what coil ringing was, and see if it was what I thought it was. It showed in the drawing sign wave and I figured it would be SQ. wave so still a little confused.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 19 2012 :  16:42:41  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Doug

Passive components such as inductors will always introduce some form of time delay which is dependant upon frequency and in the case of an inductor its inductance. This delay , with respect to charging and discharging will always follow an exponential curve ( slope , being dependant upon if charging or discharging ).

The "ringing" is basically the + and - charges " fighting " each other and their potential ( voltage ) decaying until they finish at zero volts .

ron

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ccass15n
Average Member



USA
218 Posts

Posted - June 19 2012 :  16:49:26  Show Profile Send ccass15n a Private Message  Reply with Quote
where are the losses in a cap dump system?

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 19 2012 :  17:08:59  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TinMan

Once again i agree with your comments regarding the fewer components the better. Problem is though its ( almost ? ) impossibe to do witout some ,lol.

I'm not a great fan of Bedini's work ( i agree that he has created a great intrest in experimenting but the concept of the SSG is now somewhat "stale" ) . I like to "reverse" engineer designs , to do the math , find out what makes them tick. Unfortunatly of late its been more theory than practice
I have recently been looking at Bedini 's Ferris Wheel Motor and RomeroUK motor generator + your work on rotor speed increase under load.

The method i described does work , but its still not good enough , the losses introduced need to be compensated for ( this is why the intrest in RomeroUK design ,the use of a microcontroller and of course your own work ). The Ferris wheel has a serious drawback it simply cannot be scaled down , this being due to the inductor time response not allowing sufficient charge to build up.

Sorry , drifting off topic

ron
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - June 19 2012 :  21:57:36  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi cass
As a cap is not 100% efficient , you have a loss
Even using wire is a loss, although very small
So even befor we leave the battery we start at a loss, as a battery is only around 88% efficient at best
Anything that has resistance is a loss
So to get anything to run at electrical unity would be a great achievement
I am thinking more along the line of liquid electrical energy storage at the moment- with some great results

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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