International Alternative Energy Center
International Alternative Energy Center
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?




 All Forums
 Forums
 HHO and Water
 Nature doesn't make squares ?
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Kultus
Moderator


Australia
614 Posts

Posted - May 21 2012 :  16:38:04  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok guys so I have been pondering this one for a very long time,

Everybody is working on square waves with their HHO.
but...
nature doesn't make squares,

So why are we trying to make them ?

everything in "nature" is Sinusoidal, it has a curving wave with no sharp corners.

So what are we doing ?

Do we try to use a square wave to disrupt the normal sine wave ?
I know people are thinking to "ring the bell" as it were, but a bell can be rung by a sine wave too, never forget that .... it just takes little longer, but results in a much larger reaction.


Please watch this Video in full, you'll note that the first few tries the Mythbusters use devices which have a sudden stop to them as the change direction (simply put a Square wave).

After a few tries they move onto a Linnier Magnet motor and the WHOLE game changes, this device moves in smooth motions and has a perfect "SINE WAVE" movement.

They do not spend the time required to prove in full and their attempt at a scale model again included a device that had the sudden stop, but when they connected it to a bridge (even though as you can see the positioning was wrong, it was placed across 2 beams that were reinforced to each other to form box shape, a single beam like the one back int he shop would have been better) But nether the Less, Tesla throw them a curve ball and scared the crap out of them, Watch ....



_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

You must be logged in to see this link.

You must be logged in to see this link.

Skype: kultusnagrand
Facebook: You must be logged in to see this link.

Google AdSense

USA
Mountain View


TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - May 21 2012 :  18:25:16  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kultus
I know were your comeing from in reguards to useing a square wave in a HHO cell as the wave will always be a ac sine wave across the cell due to the cell acting like a capacitor.
But there is a reason for useing the square wave ,and that is to maintain a set voltage across the cell without useing to many amp's.
Once again we can use the kid on the swing example.The ac wave being the kid on the swing swining back and forth,and the quick square wave pulse being dad giving that little tap to keep the kid swinging.
Now what there all chasing is the correct moment in time as to when to give that little tap-resonant frequency.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
Go to Top of Page

Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - May 22 2012 :  00:41:16  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting, Very simple experiment

Tie a piece of rope at one end to some thing solid, now take the other end in your hand and produce a Sine wave with the rope .....

What movement was your hand making ?

was it a smooth flowing motion with no sudden stop or could you do it with a square motion, a motion with sharp stops and reversal of direction ?

...discuss ..... lets remember no one has the answers yet, lets all keep open minds

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

You must be logged in to see this link.

You must be logged in to see this link.

Skype: kultusnagrand
Facebook: You must be logged in to see this link.
Go to Top of Page

Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - May 22 2012 :  01:02:23  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey TM ,
I to believe the Resonate Frequency will be easier to match with Sinusoidal wave's, also ...
I'm not saying the square wave cant be tweaked to give the desired result's . I just think it will have an easier time to match Resonance ... A saw wave may match resonance easier in an object as it has a sharp cut off and that could be useful with the correct timing and wavelength .
I've been holding my thought's till I have a chance to experiment and work it out ... I don't want to lead anybody astray , so to speak .. If I'm wasting time it's my own and not pushing anybody to do the same !
It was suggested to me to look at Infrared spectroscopy by a very respected member , there is other info on it but, here's an example.. I found it interesting and relevant .

You must be logged in to see this link.

So till I have proof I plan to study and hopefully experiment soon.
I have no desire to lead anybody away from there research and experiment's or what there working on . Also, I have every intention of sharing if/when I have result's and method's to share .

=============================================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...

===================================================================================================

"Throughout space there is energy ... It it a mere question of time when man will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of Nature" Nicola Tesla
Go to Top of Page

Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - May 22 2012 :  01:40:32  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gees you stress a lot don't you Kudzu :D lol

Idea's are just being thrown around here no one will think anyone is trying to steer others away from what they trust in, however I did think it was worth putting our conversation out here in case anyone else has anything useful to bring to us on the subject, keeping to our selfs puts us in quite box alone with no input other than our own, the more idea;s we have flowing the more we have to work from.

As you aptly state your self the only silly questions are the ones not asked ..... :)

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

You must be logged in to see this link.

You must be logged in to see this link.

Skype: kultusnagrand
Facebook: You must be logged in to see this link.

Edited by - Kultus on May 22 2012 02:01:46
Go to Top of Page

Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - May 22 2012 :  02:28:41  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL, Yea,, I do sound a bit worried there , LOL
Your right kultus , I know it's just a discussion and kicking ideas around .

=============================================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...

===================================================================================================

"Throughout space there is energy ... It it a mere question of time when man will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of Nature" Nicola Tesla
Go to Top of Page

TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - May 22 2012 :  05:38:45  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree Kultus-we have much to learn.
But this pic bellow is what we seek.As far as i can work out from the pic,we can see the ac signwave from the capacitor effect of the cell-and within that ac signwave we see the square wave pulses.
Or i have no idea what im looking at lol???



swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
Go to Top of Page

Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - May 22 2012 :  06:04:05  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You may just have to give me a lesson on reading scopes here (still learning to read mine) but....

To me it seems we have a Sine wave through the middle (I've marked in red) and a whole array of short pulses to each rise and fall of the sine wave, which to me seems no correlation to pushing a kid on a swing ... just bashing the sine wave .... would it not be more likely to be a single pulse to each rise and / or fall of the sine wave ? would it not just be 1 tap ? or is it more like as I said before, and using the square wave to disrupt the normal sine wave of nature ?

if I've got it assabout that's ok, just slap me in the right direction and off we'll go again :)



_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

You must be logged in to see this link.

You must be logged in to see this link.

Skype: kultusnagrand
Facebook: You must be logged in to see this link.
Go to Top of Page

TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - May 23 2012 :  09:52:31  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well im no help just yet in reading scope shot's -as im still learning.But from what i see is a pulse riding on another pulse.If you look closely you can see that each pulse has another behind it that go's slightly high and lower in voltage from the 0 volt line.Also it is interesting to note that they not only lift the voltage of each pulse from the 0 volt line but at the same time manage to drop the voltage to a negative charge at the same time-thus giveing you a double potential diference in voltage.
I did see something similar in one of my pulse setup's where i used both conventional and true current flow chargeing at the same time to the one battery.This was done useing an npn and pnp transistor setup.When i put the scope on it i got not only the nomal signwave that you get with the ssg but i had an inverted wave on top aswell,which looked very similar to the one pictured,just a bit closer together.
But i have much more learning to do befor i can say for sure what that scope shot mean's-so youir guess is as good as mine.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
Go to Top of Page

Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - May 23 2012 :  16:33:19  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Guy's,
I've been looking at long wave and short wave deflections and distortion .. The overall wave is there but, it build's with a lot of short pulses .. IMHO ... The short wave's are deflected and absorbed differently than the long wave's ..
The short wave's should be like hitting a window pane with a hand full of pebbles , most of the time they will just hit and fall away with little or no results..
The long wave's should be like chucking a big rock at the same pane .. Odds are it will break the pane ...
In the case of water we want to break the molecular cohesion of H2O .

=============================================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...

===================================================================================================

"Throughout space there is energy ... It it a mere question of time when man will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of Nature" Nicola Tesla
Go to Top of Page

TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - May 24 2012 :  05:42:06  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting theroy kudzu-we do have much to learn.
I know that i am looking forward to your setup,and cant wait to see the result's-that is if your shareing lol.
I mean if you come up with a system that work's-you would rather share it with the world rather than bury it for $20,000000-wouldnt you ??? lol


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
Go to Top of Page

Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - May 24 2012 :  14:34:40  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Tinman,
The only way I won't be sharing, would be if they done buried my sorry butt , LOL

=============================================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...

===================================================================================================

"Throughout space there is energy ... It it a mere question of time when man will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of Nature" Nicola Tesla
Go to Top of Page

msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - May 26 2012 :  06:20:53  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Kultus, Guys

Sometimes I look at things a little different (odd angles of the brain LOL), so this is the way I see it, not necessarily fact.

Scope messures voltage over time at a certain frequency, compared with cam lobe design in a race engine, you want the valve open to a certian height as fast as posible, ramp speed and time open. If you plot it on a graft a standard production cam looks like a sine wave, where as a race cam looks like square wave. Its how long you can hold the valve open in a certian time span and how fast you can get it there.

Also in baseball a sine wave looks like a lazy wind up or a slow swing, I would think you want the crack of the bat hitting the ball headed for the upper deck not an infield grounder.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
Go to Top of Page

Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - May 27 2012 :  01:33:59  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey msmjr,
Yea , I have thought about Tinman's new trumpet charger that is in the ultrasonic range ... I was wondering what kind of output it would have in a HHO cell .. I'm looking forward to trying every frequency and wave form I can manage to make ...
I think every HHO cell should be different unless there were identical cell's compared .. There should be a HI/LOW range for every cell so, the input signal should need to be tunable for resonance ...
Once we find the Resonate Frequency and limit's upper and lower ,, Everybody should be able to just slap a HHO cell together and tune it to resonance with zero electrolyte ..
I'm just wanting to experiment with the long sinusoidal wave's / I hope there is potential there to get away from electrolyte .

There is a fellow in Florida that run's an old Chrysler off just a few timing mod's HHO and with water mist to keep the valve's cool ... But he is using electrolyte and a circuit he came up with with a toroidal core .. I think his name is Bob Boyce ...
I will put the link that I got from ron_o that has the info under Tinman's new useful link section.

=============================================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...

===================================================================================================

"Throughout space there is energy ... It it a mere question of time when man will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of Nature" Nicola Tesla
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
International Alternative Energy Center © 2000-2009 ForumCo.com Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.33 seconds. Snitz Forums 2000
RSS Feed 1 RSS Feed 2
Powered by ForumCo 2000-2008
TOS - AUP - URA - Privacy Policy
ForumCo Free Blogs and Galleries
Signup for a free forum or Go Banner Free