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49er
Administrator


USA
4443 Posts

Posted - March 21 2012 :  09:28:40  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi All

This is a I think a TM special. This is really a possibility and I think it is possible. Corn and a drink is a must.

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Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
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No matter where you go there you are.
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - March 21 2012 :  11:57:42  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
wow thane is finally back, glad to see it.

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 21 2012 :  17:47:47  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mmm
Ok i have to say this---Although a year ago this would have seem'd to be the holly grail,now after working out how to do the same thing and get the same effect it isnt that suppriseing.After the L.A.G ,wich dose the same thing and has the same effect,the next big supprise would be a self runner.It is a good watch and i did enjoy it,but knowing now what is possable- it is getting harder to come up with new idea's lol.
Thanks 49er for sharing the vidio's-i will watch the rest when i have 5 minute's lol.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - March 21 2012 :  20:07:07  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
^Tin the cool thing about Thane's method is, its technically the same idea, its just a slighty different variation of the method.. he didn't quite take it as far as i thought he would though with the whole regenerative breaking idea, but his main conclusions were pretty basic, and i dont really get why it was so hard to discover..

his whole point to begin with was that if u just use very high impedance coils and give them a change in flux at a fast enough frequency the lenz will start working in your favor, depending on the coil. zero coil to coil induction was necessary for the design as the isolated gen coils did all the "work".

the whole point tho is it seems theres more than one way to skin that cat and its sort of ridiculous to think about considering that is like the main hurdle when it comes to overunity.

and Tin u are pretty much on a roll i just saw that vid about the recycled exhaust. amazing stuff.. crazy things may emerge this year

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 22 2012 :  04:49:34  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ok-i dont get it.
In this vidio you see that it take's 57 watts to run the motor at 1500 rpm and run the two watt led.
Then he cranks it up to 3000 rpm wich draws 75 watts of power.
He then hooks up the 2 watt LED and the current draw drop's to 73.8 watts -and he says it uses 2 odd watts less when the 2 watt LED is hooked up???
Why cant people stand back and look at the whole system insted of just the end result of the output.
It took an extra 16 watts to get the darn thing up to 3000 rpm just so he could save 2 watt's
This isnt a 2 watt saving-it's a 14 watt loss
So now if we stand back and look at the whole experiment you can see that it used less power at the low rpm-but still he carries on like he is saving power in the higher rpm were he gains this special effect.
!!NEXT!! lol


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 22 2012 :  14:00:59  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TinMan

ok-i dont get it.
In this vidio you see that it take's 57 watts to run the motor at 1500 rpm and run the two watt led.
Then he cranks it up to 3000 rpm wich draws 75 watts of power.
He then hooks up the 2 watt LED and the current draw drop's to 73.8 watts -and he says it uses 2 odd watts less when the 2 watt LED is hooked up???
Why cant people stand back and look at the whole system insted of just the end result of the output.
It took an extra 16 watts to get the darn thing up to 3000 rpm just so he could save 2 watt's
This isnt a 2 watt saving-it's a 14 watt loss
So now if we stand back and look at the whole experiment you can see that it used less power at the low rpm-but still he carries on like he is saving power in the higher rpm were he gains this special effect.
!!NEXT!! lol



I hate sounding negative because at heart I am not, but I said the same thing. The other thing that makes me wonder is, this, too: In all Lenz effect devices I have seen demonstrated, I've failed to see the prime mover under a work load. Not an electrical load, but a physical load. Perhaps it's a no brainer... maybe it'll work in an identical fashion, but.. why ignore the experiment? After all, like you said... We are not going to "pay for 10X" watts, in order to get "2X watts" for free, all the while, the 10X watts isn't being used. That's like investing money, but never getting back the principle... ever ... sure your making money, but you are losing a lot to even begin. So... let's see the prime movers doing work. An electrical motor on a bench consuming a fair chunk of power, doing nothing accept acclerating under electromagentic load still doesn't demonstrate the desired end result. Put the prime mover UNDER physical load, and let's see it speed up given an additional high impedence disconnected load. Maybe it's easy, maybe it's a no brainer - but - let's see it. in all of Thanes experiment's I have not seen one that did. I think that would remove a lot of doubt, and it is such a simple thing, I believe it remains the single item that remains truly in question. If I tell you I can hook up a donkey to a cart for 64 hours and it won't *Nice* once, in that whole time, and I demonstrate it... fine. Next, you'all ask me, but let's see the donkey pull the cart all day, eat his meals, and still not *Nice*? It's basic. Nobody is, or ever will be interested in a demonstration that serves no typical daily purpose.. We don't consume 10 watts in genny to serve 2, and believe something extra is given to the system that is physics defying. Why than has never had a dyno measured load on his prime mover, visible, and shown acceleration effects, simultaneously... I cannot understand and it remains the problem with his demos. Don't assume people will "mathematically" figure it out in their heads that what you show will save energy, show it, physically saving energy by comparing a DC motor outputting torque "doing work" under normal conditions, then show it accelerating under the same dyno load, in condition B. It is a simple way of ridding and speculation that something funny is going on. Who cares what a motor at fast idle not under load does.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on March 22 2012 14:10:39
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - March 22 2012 :  16:32:03  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
you guys are pretty much right.. main thing being even with Thane's idea when u factor in the prime mover input the efficiency just isn't there.

but my main beef is, even though its no so efficient, it still works..
it seemed like for so long physicists and well-schooled tinkerers strongly insisted that lenz could not be "Reversed" or used to ones advantage. its supposed to be a force that will always oppose the motion of the prime mover, yet all it takes is a high impedance and frequency.
i like this video where the guy shows it pretty clearly.


then Tin came up with yet another way to see the effect, and that didn't even require a certain high impedance or frequency.
why has it been such an argued topic for so long when its clearly possible to one extent or another.. this was not something that took special equipment or incredibly complicated designs to see. the sheer disbelief and discredit to the idea handed down by so many professionals holding degrees and experience had given me the impression it was an impossible argument. but clearly, in the past couple years it has been proven beyond any doubt that the lenz force can actually be used to ones advantage in certain situations..

kind of shocking to me since there are so many similar arguments out there as to what "can" and "can't" work in electromagnetics

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 22 2012 :  17:27:33  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol Mag-thats the vidio i forgot to put with my last comment lol.
Sorry -i had a cw moment there lol.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 22 2012 :  17:42:20  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kcarring
I believe the L.A.G dose exactly what you mention and that is create more rotor torque when a load is applied to the generator in the way that it speeds up.To get the rotor to speed up must mean that more torque is being applied to the rotor to overcome any resistance in the system.
I believe i can do this with any mains powered or ac motor with even better results-the one big problem is that the rpm is determond by the ac frequency.So although we would have more torque in the motor we wouldnt have any more rpm-something to try and overcome.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - March 22 2012 :  18:24:27  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
like u said about the video Tin hes not really getting a gain.. its an actual loss. its sort of like grocery stores and coupons.. u go in to buy one thing in particular, and only one, then some coupon says if you buy 10 of them you actually save a couple bucks. sure u "saved" but you left having spent more money than you intended.

but lets say that rotor had 11 more of the same gen coils. since the addition of each coil only makes the system more efficient under that load then every coil you add u get to run one more load for "less than free".

at that point the efficiency would have just risen until more coils could not be physically added..

so what if he had the rotor double stacked and now theres 24 magnets and 24 coils.. would the DC motor have to work THAT much harder to spin that extra weight?

in that vid the led bulb technically recooped about 4 watts from the system. i'd just say 3 watts to be fair. so i look at it like just as a DC motor, its efficiency had just increased.
since we are technically increasing the efficiency of the motor by loading the rotor in a certin way we can increase the motors efficiency even more by just adding more identical loads.

if i had the equipment i would fix a very large but lightweight rotor that would have about 100 poles and about 100 gen coils. assuming i could get around 3000 rpm at 75 watts, it should only take me around 40 of those gen coils to produce the 75 watts i needed for the input. however since i now have more magnets i shouldn't even need to go the entire 3000 rpm anymore right? the extra required power to turn a heavier rotor the same speed should be offset some by the fact i would no longer need to go the same 3000 rpm.

if i can assume that would indeed work then i'd have to assume taking advantage of all 100 gen coils would give me overunity.

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 22 2012 :  23:39:14  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That may work Mag- but I think having many coils close together would change the magnetic field around the rotor this creating magnetic drag
Maybe alternating magnet and an odd number of coils would work so as to keep the field neutral around the rotor
Do you know if the magnets are all one pole out or alternating?


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - March 23 2012 :  00:13:27  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i think in his setup he had the magnets alternating for more power.

i think a good experiment would simply be testing to see how many watts it would take a given DC motor to turn a rotor of a certain size at X rpms, then see how many more watts it takes it to turn a rotor of twice the weight at X rpm.

thats where it starts to get interesting because not only would the addition of each coil alleviate some of those watts from the motor but they would be running a load at the same time.

as long as that frequency range is held, it seems as if simply introducing enough of the loaded coils would cause the prime mover input to become practically nothing, and thats without even trying to recoop any of the energy in the coils.

plus the thing to remember is thanes original demos of the design were showing much more efficiency. he was lighting incandescent bulbs and getting a good deal of speed increase. if u factor in a drop in driving watts with a speed increase thats even more watts dropped if u keep the speed regulated.

i thought his ideas would lead him to at least innovate generators to save gas.. a generator that drinks no extra gas under load is not a bad idea.


[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 23 2012 :  07:25:33  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think there is one man on this forum that could do this with all these coil's-hey TJ lol


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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iaec
Forum Admin



1033 Posts

Posted - March 24 2012 :  08:02:02  Show Profile Send iaec a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi all,

You guys made me lol alot with your spot on comments...:))
At TM, dont have time for any other stuff now.
Still waiting for my latest shaft than i can go shafted.lol

TimberJack


***Possibilities Within The Impossible***
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 24 2012 :  15:58:29  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TinMan

Hi Kcarring
I believe the L.A.G dose exactly what you mention and that is create more rotor torque when a load is applied to the generator in the way that it speeds up.To get the rotor to speed up must mean that more torque is being applied to the rotor to overcome any resistance in the system.
I believe i can do this with any mains powered or ac motor with even better results-the one big problem is that the rpm is determond by the ac frequency.So although we would have more torque in the motor we wouldnt have any more rpm-something to try and overcome.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69




I am not saying I don't believe any of it works, I'm saying put a drive belt on the rotor, do some work, let's see what happens. When you fire up a drill instance, the draw is all over the map, and it goes down once it comes up to speed. Try hooking up a physical load, and remove the doubt. Nobody would ever want to run a 6 watt motor to get 2 watts of light, so my point is, demonstrate it in a useful manner. This has been a beef of all those who complain that Thane has not demonstrated overunity yet. It's pretty simple; we don't judge motors on their ability to fast idle, nor do we assume a small load attached to that fast idle "might not" improve efficiency. The huge problem with Thanes demo is, he says "ok here is your electric car..." No thane, here is your motor on fast idle. Show me a car motor under huge load, going down the road acclerating, hit the switch, let's see the draw go down, the motor accelerate, and the batteries charge.

In your demo it'd be great to see you forget about the charging battery, remove it. Place an imposed PHYSICAL non magnetic/gen load on the rotor, make it do work.

Then click the gen coil up, make it speed up, show the draw go down, all the while, doing work.

Then, that says something, until then it's all just a big question mark, because you have a device that draws more energy than needed to supply the load, meanwhile the prime mover is not loaded... too ambiguous for the layman to "get it". We don't measure the mark of a motors efficiency, by checking how much fuel it burns, sitting still in a parking lot, and that is what is being demonstrated here, essentially. Both you and Thane argue, a load is a load. But that is not valid because you have saturation levels of cores, hysteresis, counter emf, all sorts of things at play. Put it to work, remove the doubt, I say. :) I don't doubt it does work, let's see it in context of what a motor does; get loaded down, and does work. It's not normal to run a motor on electricity, to then run a generator of electricity, do you understand? Not unless you can see more output than input... which is clearly not what is being shown. So use the motor in a USEFUL way, and show it demonstrating the effect.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on March 24 2012 16:11:28
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  08:58:24  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TJ-this sounds promising-were's the vidio??? lol
I agree 100% kcarring-a load on the motor would change everything
But if we once again stand back and look at the whole picture-there is one big flaw that were all missing here.
Now correct me if im wrong-but isnt regenerative breaking suppose to help slow the vehicle down??
So lets go for a ride in an electric vehicle that has Thanes system in it
So here we are cruiseing at 60mph,we are comeing up to a corner just befor a river. We take our foot of the excelorator to slow down-only to find we pick up speed.So in no time flat we have over shot the corner-the mud is starting to flow through the underwear and the next thing we know we are under water watching the fish swim past the winscreen.
This dosnt sound like a good system to put into a vehicle to me.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  11:27:52  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
in regards to the idea of providing a physical load, i actually think thats what he was doing. sure it wasn't actually a physical belt but what would be the point of that?

the prime mover is totally isolated. in fact there is already a physical load on it, the rotor itself.

what would be the actual point of providing a physical load? that would defeat the purpose since its a generator system and not a motor system.

if u placed a belt across the motor, then what? have that belt turn another rotor and have that rotor interface with the regen coils?

it would be the exact same thing, except now u have introduced more unnecessary resistance.

and for all intensive purposes the loading of a coil has always been synonymous with a physical loading.

i guess the goal would be to have two identical dc motors.. one of them spins and generates via the regen coils.
the other turns a belt and alternator.
which one would produce more electricity at the same driving watts.




[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  13:09:19  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Mag why on earth would you take an electric motor, to then run a rotor to then make electricity if the total output was less than the total input. Think about it, it borders retardation. We use wind, internal combustion motors, all sorts of things to power generators, but we do not have electric powered electric generators, so from a feasibility point of view, the only reason would be to, for example have a dual purpose machine, and electrical motor that did something useful, and generated power; thus, Thane Heins mentioning of an electric car. So, the point is very very very simple: demonstrate that a functional device with purpose, can be implemented, showing the effect.

It is analagous to me stating that I can plug an HHO unit into the wall, jet the gas into an ICE, and have it idle, saving fuel. No, to do a real demonstration, you needing a rolling, moving vehicle, under load, producing it's own electricity, and thus the HHO injected.

That's my point. No one gets anywhere demonstrating a non functional / useful effect. That's all. If it's simple, then do it. No one has. That I've seen.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on March 25 2012 13:10:12
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  13:41:48  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well that was my beef as well.. i think he could have showed the use in a couple other ways instead of the regen breaking..
we are not only talking about electrically driven devices with his design.. it can be ANY style of prime mover, that is the good part.
the problem of course is regulating a frequency, which is clearly easier to do with electrical devices.

i personally feel like using an electrical input would ONLY be good for trying to test overunity, and it did seem to have the potential for creating more "out" than "in".

ive already thought it would be good for a gas powered generator.. u hook up your drill and everything else and the motor doesn't need any extra torque that would be nice.

the possibilities could have been endless if it weren't for the high frequency needed.. otherwise you could imagine a human powered dynamo that took very little effort to run loads.

practically anything that used a rotor to go speeds in excess of a few thousand RPM, could also have thane's generator setup on it as well..

just as a very random example.. assume we have a large industrial fan that has the most efficient motor money can buy. isn't it cool you could technically attach a small gen system to the rotor and get more use from its motion, without ANY extra consumption of the power source?

lets say u had an RC plane.. well u COULD do the same thing with the propeller motor, but in that situation u would have to factor in the extra weight.. not sure if it would balance itself out or not.

however stationary rotors or turbines wont really suffer that extra weight issue.




[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]

Edited by - Magneticitist on March 25 2012 13:42:30
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  18:39:55  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Definitely agree with you there.

"just as a very random example.. assume we have a large industrial fan that has the most efficient motor money can buy. isn't it cool you could technically attach a small gen system to the rotor and get more use from its motion, without ANY extra consumption of the power source? "

That's exactly what I am saying, something that can be put to use. Not an electrically powered electrical generator.

You know, I've always said (to myself) the only use for a Bedini Rotor, in my world, is a ceiling fan that drives wood heat down, 24/7 and charges batteries in an off grid setting. And I still want to experiment with theory, and I often go back and forth in my mind, does it have merit, or not?

I see Twalley's stuff and I gotta say I am real impressed.

And then I think.. well.. hold on... How much air will it push, by comparison. And then I think, who cares, you don't need much, it'll be perfect... and so I think : but what if you just had a very very efficient fan that burned less power than the Bedini/charger did, then you'd be ahead, but I look at the rating on these fans and they don't seem so damn good...

I dunno.

I have to think it's a good idea, and if it is, I'm shocked Rick or John has never marketed such a thing for cabins and RV's because they are always stating "you get the kinetic energy for nothing and that's part of the magic", yet, what have they done with the kinetic energy, lit up a string of LEDs on a poorly constructed pickup coil? Have they actually done more? Maybe so... I heard once he has a car or a go kart that is actually Bedini motor powered or somethin? I dunno. The kinetic seems to get up-played, and then down-used.. if you follow.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on March 25 2012 19:26:46
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  19:02:37  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yea i wonder the same thing.. i remember only one vid by that guy introvertebrate where he had two exact fans and one was wired as a bedini.. he was doing torque tests by blocking their air flows and measuring the rpms and input draw.. if i remember correctly he was able to get both fans working just about exactly the same, except the bedini would also be able to charge a battery. aside from seeing that one test i cant say much else.. i do know that some fans rewired seemed more efficient and some didn't. one of those larger radio shack fans i bought seemed to perform exactly the same, but maybe drew slightly more current as a bedini, and charged things "ok". some other smaller ones seemed to draw less current for the same general air output, but weren't worth a donkey turd at charging a battery unless you had days and days to wait.

i'd say the fan SSG may still probably be the best use as far as the rotor though.. however it that respect it could still be argued that the fan could simply be tapped from some diodes when conventionally wired to get the same general charging effect, it just wouldn't be able to tune on the fly.

it would be kinda cool to go in a room and turn on the fan by giving it a little spin tho lol

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - December 07 2012 :  15:30:35  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Thane's point wasn't more out than in, it was extending the per-cycle life of a battery, you get more out of it, not because any laws are being broken, but by getting around Lenz's Law, or whatever it is that's going on, you are making more efficient use of the input energy.


DC.


Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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erfinder
New Member



26 Posts

Posted - December 16 2012 :  05:04:29  Show Profile  Send erfinder a Yahoo! Message Send erfinder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TinMan


I believe i can do this with any mains powered or ac motor with even better results-the one big problem is that the rpm is determond by the ac frequency.So although we would have more torque in the motor we wouldnt have any more rpm-something to try and overcome.



Hello Tinman,

You open to discussing how you would go about doing this?

I have begun the labored process of rewinding one or two induction motors LAG fashion, still waiting on a few parts before I can shoot a video, maybe I'll upload an image of the stator....I am interested in the above highlighted comment you made, those AC motors you mention....would you have to rewind them, LAG style, or have you come up with some other method?

Regards
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - December 16 2012 :  05:42:12  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi erfinder
It is good to see your still around.
In reguards to the above question-take a look at my lockridge device thread in this section of the forum.
Slightly diferent,but hopeing for the same result's.

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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deepcut
Junior Member



United Kingdom
120 Posts

Posted - December 25 2012 :  07:18:21  Show Profile  Send deepcut a Yahoo! Message Send deepcut a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Excellent comments in this thread. I've been thinking the same things while following Thane's progression as closely as i can but in a scaled-down (ie; cheaper !) way.

He had one critic back in '09 who claimed (without experimenting !) that the effect was due to the peculiarities of AC induction motors, that's why i did a DC motor version,to discount his theory, it was easily disproved, he was a lazy journalist !

Having played with the effect in various incarnations (SSG-circuit pulse motor,DC motor and transformer) I now want to see what the limits are, hence my winding larger and larger coils in order to see if the effect is additive and can outweigh the core-drag.

As TM, Mags and kcarring have said, we want it doing something useful, and i feel pretty sure this can be used to at least save energy.

Happy Christmas,

DC.



Experience is a hard teacher. It gives the test first and the lesson afterward.
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