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 HHO and Water
 HHO and unity - understanding the numbers
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kcarring
Moderator


Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 17 2012 :  01:18:10  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here are some basic numbers I took off a great page by Delvis11.
I removed a bit of his sales language, but the numbers are useful.

"My cell does 3 LPM at 13.1 volts and 27 Amps".

Do the math, 13.1 volts x 27 (the amps stated) x 20 (60 seconds divided by the 3 lpm stated) / 3600 =1.95 . So in this example the output is overunity.

You need to know the formula for cell efficiency, it is as follows in 2 ways,

Efficiency
100 x 7744 x volume in liters / (voltage x amps x test period in seconds) = efficiency

Lets take the example above, so
100 x 7744 x 3 / 13.1 x 27 x 60 = % Eff
2,323,200) / (21,222) = 109% claimed efficiency

MMW
MMW is milliliters per minuet of output divided by watts, 7.8 represents 100% efficiency

Using the above claim again, 3000 / (13.1 x 27 ) (353.7 watts) = 8.48, again, overunity.



source:
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 17 2012 :  07:18:02  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nice information there kcarring
But a lot of people are missing a major point with any cell wether it is 100%+ or not.
Lets look at the numbers of the cell you mentioned 100 x 7744 x 3 / 13.1 x 27 x 60 = % Eff
2,323,200) / (21,222) = 109% claimed efficiency.
Cool so we now have a cell that is 109% efficient.So what happen's next?
We go and install that 109% efficient cell on an internal combustion engin that is a best 37% efficient.So that means we just lost63% efficiency from that 109% efficient cell. So now we have a combined system that is 46% efficient.
So if we take the whole system into account and include the 63% loss in the I.C.E then we would need a HHO system that is 163% efficient at the very least.
As you will see with my HHO project-i do not believe that a HHO system by itself will run an engin,there needs to be a combination of diferent systems to do the job.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - March 17 2012 :  08:18:20  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

That is good to have around when I think I will get to that point. MAY BE. LOL TM you just take out the fun of trying to get to a 100% of something. LOL


Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 17 2012 :  09:48:43  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
lol-just standing back and looking at the whole picture.



swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 17 2012 :  12:58:57  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm kicking myself in the butt because a guy released a video back a couple of years ago, he had redesigned a motor specifically to run on HHO and HHO alone, something I think Kultus would have really like... it was a linear piston design.

@tinman The whole works needs to be redesigned from ground up I agree. The real key though is to get the HHO "at a bargain", overunity... once someone replicates that, anyway you look at it, it'll be beneficial.


Everyone has their own concept of how they see stuff going together... myself, due to my many years of logging... I'm a diesel guy, I love diesel engine design. I hope to one day build a car based on biodiesel and HHO / solar. It would all revolve around a very tiny build, almost like a go cart really. On the "dream scale" we are talking about something not so far off of this:

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(264.3 miles per gallon)

On my scale, it would be a very small scale economy based low speed transportation device, a hybrid biodiesel / electric powered vehicle that can also receive pedal assist. The kind of thing that'd be driving "down the edge of the road" not in the main flow of traffic and the heart of it would be an HHO assisted 1 cyl diesel 3 kilowatt generator, possibly not unlike this:

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Two wheels in the back, one in the front... so a trike, essentially, very low to the ground. Two 1000 watt electric in-hub motors on the rear wheel. 48V. Li or SLA batteries. Genset only comes on when needed to charge batteries or assist drive wheel during large uphill climbs. The hood would be a (24 volt) solar panel with a voltage doubler and thus it would be most typically parked facing south. Given it's pedal assist (front wheel) and electric drive, I think it could easily obtain 200 miles per gallon typical use.

Diesel can be made at home from recycled plastic. Or biodisel can be contrived too, if you have the agricultural resources.

So that's kind of where I am going (hopefully, eventually).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on March 17 2012 15:12:34
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 17 2012 :  22:17:12  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kcarring
why not just use a late modle 4 stroke scooter motor that get's 209 mpg-there of the shelf items


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 18 2012 :  00:53:10  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't know they were that good. I do like the idea of making my own fuel though... with the diesel.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 18 2012 :  05:39:23  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So i have been reading in a few diferent places now that if super heated steam is injected into the motor with HHO,the flash burn heat is enough to turn the super heated steam into HHO aswell and it to burns-explodes with the Other HHO.
Anyone know anything about this???


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  20:05:34  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@TM are you talking toward 1500 degrees? That's what happened (apparently) in Japan.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  21:32:34  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok aparently my HHO cell has a MMW of 7.5. If 7.8 is 100% efficient i must be doing something wrong in my calculation's here.
I never sanded or even cleaned my plate's-i just put the cell together and cranked it up.Surley it can be doing this well straight of the bat?
Here are my number's
10 volts
30 amps
2.25 lpm
Now im also not sure about how the amp's-volts are of the welder as the amp's on the dial go by the dead short arc when welding,not when put through a capacitive-resistive load like a HHO cell.
Also that is only about a 40% on time-so if i use an amp meter how will that go reading a pulsed output?.
Will it read the peak amp's of the 40% on time,and if so dose that mean we are only useing 40% of the watts when we x the volt's by amp's ?--or will it read an average of amp's over the 40% on time and 60% off time?
Now i know when used as a welder the 10mm leads get very warm at 100 amps-but at 100 amps on my cell and useing only 2.5mm wire they remain cold-even after 30 minutes running,also the water is only just warm after this time.
So how do you get an accurate amp reading with high frequency pulsed DC ?


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  22:44:11  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Obviously there is a better way to obtain true results and it involves equipment you and me most likely do not have, that is a scope with data acquisition and two channel with multiplier so you are reading power consumed over time...

but...

Having said that you are (apparently) talking about "not that many" watts, under 500. Is the inverter standard plug can you run it through a watt meter?

Another thing you can do, if not, is build a shunt of very low resistance - not a resistor - a shunt. Calibrate it to have a millivolt drop over a 10A or 5A load. Make sure your scope is running not from mains power or, through an isolation transformer. Then drop the probe across the shunt and inspect the input into the electrolyser, observe the period of the wave, and get a feel for if your multimeter is lying to you or not. If you are over 3K or under 20Hz there is a good chance it is. Precisely you are after root mean power consumption (which is time based) not RMS voltage times RMS current, because your meter is 50-60Hz based and your energy isn't. They use upper harmonics to establish those RMS, and if the upper harmonics of your circuit frequency are beyond the capability of the meter, they lie. Scopes don't.

quick and dirty test. Take a 1.25A fuse and place it inline of one of your AC lines. Make it a slow blow. If your drawing more than 300 watts, it'll roast. Then you know your 300 watts is BS.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on March 25 2012 23:14:35
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  23:49:47  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well my scope is a two channel but i only have one probe-and i have no idea if it has data acquisition. However it dose have a usb output and an external monitor plug.
I will just have to get an amp meter from work that go to 150 amp's -or as you say ,use a suitable shunt on a smaller gauge.
Thanks for your help kcarring
Cheers


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 29 2012 :  13:50:35  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tinman,

In the past, I have had difficulties (and still do) will measuring pulsed DC energy... let's face it man, there are aspects that completely *Universal* with your readings two most obvious being, meters aren't made for it, and, when your circuit (in this case is submerged in salt water, basically) your temperatures are forever changing... over time, so any single instantaneous measurement in time doesn't mean a whole lot.

But...

Here is a thought.

Fuses don't really lie, and they are not all that expensive.

On my unit, I KNOW when I'm over 20A input the damn fuse blows.

It's a start, to see if your meters are even close to what they say.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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shakamuni01
Average Member



USA
213 Posts

Posted - May 03 2012 :  21:59:02  Show Profile Send shakamuni01 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok two questions:

Where are you guys getting the 7744 number from?

Also if I didn't care how long it took to produce HHO and wanted to produce it really slowly if it could be more efficient do either of you guys have any experience with this.

Just one more side question/idea. I wonder if old battery plates can be used as elements(with holes drilled through them to make it more efficient)
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