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49er
Administrator


USA
4442 Posts

Posted - March 01 2012 :  11:24:36  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just ran across this and it is weird. To go from a wind in one direction to powering in a different direction in a straight line.
This is a concept I don't really understand

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Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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USA
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 01 2012 :  15:22:57  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very interesting! I wonder how they are able to accurately measure the current windspeed, when the weather station is moving, itself. It would appear to be a very complicated line integral of several variables (vectors). Maybe they have on board software that does the calculus or something... but man... that's a very complicated equation.

On t5heir blog it says they obtained 3.5X the speed of wind. So I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt LOL. That should pretty much cover the error margin, you'd think, anyway.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on March 01 2012 15:31:22
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 01 2012 :  16:55:25  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is nothing complicated about this,or how they can achieve a faster speed than the wind.How NASA and scientist say it cant be done i will never know.
As we all know,a simple land yatch can go faster than the wind if driven on a tac across the wind.The answer lies within this,i will let you's ponder for a while lol.

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49er
Administrator



USA
4442 Posts

Posted - March 01 2012 :  21:31:22  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM

That is long enough. SPILL IT

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - March 01 2012 :  23:21:26  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
its definitely a really cool idea. i can see where the confusion would be about the speeds. one would think whether pushing or pulling the object being moved would not move faster than whats pushing or pulling it.

i sort of look at it like maybe a propeller or pinwheel in a certain situation could be said to have a rotation speed "faster" than that of the direct wind speed driving it.

in this device the wind is actually somehow working as a resistance for the blades to pull itself across just as much as the wind is pushing and propelling them.

at any rate because of the wheels, it could be like showing a simple gear setup, where the wheels are geared up and spin achieving great linear distance compared to the un-geared propeller alone.
when u put a bike into high gear the rotation of your pedals is much less than the bike wheel for example, so in this device the pedals are like the propeller and wheels are still the wheels.

like Tin was saying i wonder if u could also say its similar to a surfer riding a wave. i wonder if it could be said the surfer is moving across at a faster speed than the wave itself is traveling toward the beach?



[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 02 2012 :  02:14:13  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's been known for a long while that a beam or broad reach in sailing can achieve higher speeds, but you point sailboat downwind and use all three sails, hell throw out the spinnaker if you want EVERYTHING changes. I think that is the point they are trying to make. Non tangential acceleration.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 02 2012 :  04:28:32  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is defently a cool machine. I also believe this could be made to work without wind-as they went from below wind speed to above wind speed.This can only mean that at one point in time there was no wind speed at all as the vehicle was at one stage traveling at the same speed as the wind.And from this we can say that if it wasnt going to work without wind then why didtn it stop excelorating once it hit wind speed?
Here is why-If you watch the vidio carfuly you will see that the prop is turning against the flow of wind-so this is surface area of the whole machine that can collect the wind energy to propel it forward verses pitch on the prop.You will see that it starts of very slowly,and that is because of this very reason(the prop wanting to work against the rest of the machine)
The magic happens when the vehicle reaches the speed of the wind and the prop is no longer working against the machine.
Now that the prop and machine are above wind speed the prop that is being driven by the wheels starts to decrease the air preasure infront of the vehicle and increase the air preasure behind the vehicle,the vehicle has less resistance in front of it and more behind it -makeing it move forward faster.A helicoptor works in the same way-you decrease air preasure above the blades and increase air preasur below the blades and this give's you virtical lift.But in this case the lift is horizontal.
As the wheels turn faster,so dose the prop which in turn make's the wheels turn fatser--and so on
But there will be a limit were friction and ground force will stall the vehicles speed at a set amount.
This could be overcome some what buy adjusting the pitch of the blade's on the prop and decreasing ground force by shaping the vehicle a bit better.Like an F1 car's wings increase ground force when getting faster,you would want to decrease ground force on this machine when speed is higher.This could be done by slightly tipping the prop backwards to create a slight lift aswell as decrease air preasure in front of the vehicle.

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49er
Administrator



USA
4442 Posts

Posted - March 02 2012 :  10:26:53  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi All

Nice expiation TM but unless your real fast on the blade tipping control that would turn into a wheely machine real easy. LOL

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 02 2012 :  10:38:29  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hey-less wheels on the ground,the less ground friction lol.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - March 03 2012 :  21:51:22  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
the question is how can this design be implemented in a windmill device to gather more energy
[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]

Edited by - Magneticitist on March 03 2012 21:53:08
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 03 2012 :  23:00:20  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@TM

i think you are spot on. If you took a fixed wind aircraft, figured out the HP used that would be the absolute minimum needed for that aircraft to remain in flight and not lose altitude.. so, i mean to say throttled right down as low as possible... if all the calculations were done based around zero head wind, or zero tailwind, and you figured out the actual energy used to maintain this state, im pretty certain it'd be less energy than what would be calculated as necessary to lift the actual mass to that height, and move it forward at that velocity; i.e. the energy required to do that function with a steel ball instead of a plane.

So like you say, I think the cart is basically to one degree or another - getting lift, approaching take off.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 04 2012 :  20:06:01  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i truely believe this to be the first cop+ machine i have seen.
It cannot be disputed that at one point in time that the vehicle is traveling at the same speed as it's power source (the wind).
This can only mean that at one point there is no air flow in relation to the vehicle, and yet the vehicle still picks up speed.
So lets stand back and realy see what is happening.
1st-at the start the vehicle's body itself is the sail and at this point the prop is working against it-(the slow start)
2nd-when the vehicle is traveling at the speed of the wind,the vehicle is no longer the sail and the prop starts to push the vehicle along.
3rd-the wheels are driving the prop-the prop dosnt drive the wheels due to the ratchit mechanisim.(this was the ruels for the record attempt)]
Conclusion after wind speed is reached-The wheels turn the prop-the prop pushes the vehicle faster-wich turn the wheel's faster-wich turn the prop faster-and so on.Then we have to take into accountthat the faster it go's the more wind resistance it will encounter.
So if we look at this in an electrical sence,we have this-an electric motor driving a generator wich is powering the electric motor to turn the generator faster wich spins the motor faster. And a load aswell-being the wind resistance the vehicle is encountering.
I believe this machine belongs in your cop+ topic 49er
And like Mag said-how to use this effect on a windmill or wind generator???



swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions
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49er
Administrator



USA
4442 Posts

Posted - March 10 2012 :  19:14:37  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi All

I do think we need to find out more about this machine. Very interesting

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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