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 Real Assessment of Power In vs. Power Out
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kcarring
Moderator


Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 25 2012 :  14:20:00  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really had a wake up call last night. I had been working on driving LEDs with an SS SSG air core 2T charger... and I was making observations, trying to learn something. In the back of my mind I had something Tinman had eluded to me about how the input on such a device operated, in a discussion about power supplies.

I kept playing around, until something strange happened, now, for me -- this is the first time I've seen it.

After tons of experiments watching current in, current out, voltage source, and voltage output:

I observed more power going out than being drawn.

And so, that really made me go hmmmmmm

So I started looking at EVERYTHING with the scope, double examining voltage drops using two channels with the scope, then seeing what a DMM showed, then using an analog meter.

I haven't come to any cold hard conclusions, but I will say I believe I saw for my own eyes enough to just about discredit anything I have seen, outlined as apparent OU, unless shown, for example by a differential scope. And so I deleted my last few videos, because essentially they are total crap LOL

So... this morning I borrowed two Fluke True RMS meters and replicated the effect. They didn't help. And so, I found this document, see paragraph 3, page 3:
You must be logged in to see this link.

Also, an interesting video is PESN's coverage of Steven Jones approach to measuring his overunity joule thief circuit.




METERS LIE ABOVE CERTAIN FREQUENCY RANGES

So, together as a group I challenge you all to do as I have seen very few places, and that is, put together an outline of approved methods.

Obviously I'm no leader in this, so I am asking all of you to help me and each other grow in the right direction.

The first problem I see is the input, shall we focus on that? How can we at least first determine whether we even possess good enough gear to even assess?

Here is the problem I see:

Let's take this input signal.



This is an approximation of what was observed across an input resistor at about 3 KHZ. But I'm not sure if this correct? Input draw on an SS SSG.

Cheers


~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on February 25 2012 14:51:20

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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - July 12 2012 :  16:38:11  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
lol guess we still cant give a solid answer for that one kyle

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - August 01 2012 :  09:49:33  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i must have some how missed this post? lol But it holds great interest to me.
On my vidio-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZQMaGMQqY pulse motors and measurments,i showed the voltage across a resistor of a set value on the input side.
So lets have a look at how an amp meter works in a DMM.
It measures a voltage across a shunt that has a set resistance value.
The DMM then uses it's set calculations (ohms law)to give us a amp reading across that resistive shunt.
So how can it be diferent to what i done useing a resistor as a shunt with a set resistance,then useing ohms law to calculate the current being drawn through that resistor?-is this not exactly what a DMM dose to measure current?
So if this is correct,then why the two diferent reading that are a lot diferent?
Well i still believe it is because some people insist that it is always the battery voltage that you have to take your readings from.
But i still dont believe this to be the case.
If we use the potential diference between the cap and battery in my setup which was around 4 volt's,then multiply that voltage by the amp draw on the DMM-it works out exactly the same as useing ohms law across that resistor i had between the battery and cap.So that is to coincidental for me.
The voltage in an inductor is never going to be battery voltage,due to resistance.
So should the current draw not be coil voltage x the resistance of the coil?-if there is no other resistors in the circuit.
Then who ever takes into account of the internal resistance of the battery they are useing?Well in most cases it is to low to worry about,so we dont bother.
There is yet another thing to concider,and that is the resistance of the inductor or coil.
When we pulse an inductor the resistance will go up into the meg ohms in an inductor that has about 4 ohms resistance at rest.So is our DMM measureing the startup resistance,or the full on resistance? How can the meter measure current across it's internal resistor(shunt) when there is other resistors across the meter-being in the circuit?.

If we take two analog amp meter's(wich are just shunts with a set resistance)and we hook them up in series-is it not the sum of the two we should take as being our amp draw?-or do we just look at one of them? and just say-to hell with the other one-it's nothing?

When i look at my scope at the voltage across the coil,i can work out the resistance average of that coil while the machine is running.But if i use my DMM and multiply the battery voltage by the current draw,and useing ohms law-it is no where close to what my scope is telling me.

This is a very valid point Kyle-how to truely measure watts input?
With a pulsed system-this will be very dificult,but were working on it.
But i do know along with many others,that something is wrong.How do so many people end up with more volts in a charge battery,that the run battery went down by?--Simple,we are reading our watt consumption wrong

swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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