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TinMan
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4082 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  07:51:03  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey kultus-i think i found that engin design were looking for-expantion and contraction


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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  07:57:08  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I need a explanation TM, What is going on here ?

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  08:21:51  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well the motor is missing the top half so you can see the pistions inside
The two pistons on each set move apart when the explosion take's place and rotates the crank 180 deg,then the two pistons come back together rotating the crank the other 180 deg-this is the part were we could use that contraction after ignition to pull the two pistons back together. This would give us a 360 deg power stroke
This is ingenious

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  13:49:08  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That looks very suited I agree! When I get a chance I'll do an experiment. If you had a known value of a resistor that you were sure would burn up, in a circuit, and you placed that in a sealed detonation chamber, and off that detonation chamber you had a hose/line, leading to a one way valve (allowing only input), and the chamber was of adequate strength... then you could place the hose in a bucket of water, and test the theory of only an implosion taking place in the absence of all other air.. as Kultus said... it may in fact be true, I see what he is eluding to, now... there is, in fact one video online that sort of illustrates that effect. It's an interesting theory, I've never really looked at it quite that way, as I have always seen the explosive nature, employed it even removing stumps from the ground etc.

@TM Did you state you were getting 2 lpm with around 6 watts of input?!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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TinMan
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4082 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  17:11:24  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kcarring
yes that is correct,but befor you jump for joy lol there is something that you have to know first.
Now in a normal situation that may seem fantastic and alomost inposable-but in this situation it isnt so good.
As you know im useing a motor to turn an altinator and im sending a set amount of current into the rotor of the altinator to create our magnetic field.
As the throtal on the motor is set to just above idles i am calculating the amps going into the rotor by the volt,s across the cell at that set throtal position.
The reason for this is because i know i need 5.6 lpm to run the motor at that fixed position.Now that i have that measurment and flow rate all i have to do is see how much current i can draw from the altinator befor the motor stalls.
So i will need to be able to draw about 17 watts of power from the altinator without the motor stalling.I loaded it up with 12 watts last night and it didnt stall-so far so good lol.

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TinMan
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4082 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  19:31:14  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok- so after watching many vidio' s on HHO ,it would seem the dry cells are more efficient than the wet cells
Dose anyone know if the dry plate cells can have a resonance pulse like the tube cells of stans setup?

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  23:37:36  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@TM

Well, if you've seen my setup I BUILT based around what I could see from another guys setup, you'll note I am no expert. But it was good enough to offset it's energy costs and improve mileage, which is some mark of success anyway (many didn't get an improvement at and around the time).

Having said that, my answer would be "Yes" - in the Bob Boyce configuration. Although, the guy, himself, is a bit surrounding by skepticism and I have yet to see a replication that met his claims. But whatever... we see a lot of that do we not? And he put his work out there .. in the D9 document, but who is to say he put EVERYTHING out there, or, that the replications were indeed 100%.

Anyhow.. if you check out Bob Boyce's setup, it does in fact have some unique qualities that differ it from both wet and dry cells. Like a wet cell, all plates are submerged and therefore there is no current loss to the plate surface on the sides (as in the case of typical gasketed dry cells like mine). Also... there are no port holes for electrolyte to mix from one cell to another, rather it is "top filled with small tubes" which is the same paradigm seen in the George Wiseman PVC pipe cell. UNLIKE most wetcells, though, the Bob Boyce design is compact, leaving little or no "extra fluid wandering around" the sides, as in your cell, or Stan's cell. I honestly believe that in Stan's cell, it really didn't matter - it is my belief he really wasn't doing normal electrolysis AT ALL. Both George and Bob stress that an exact distance between plates is crucial and George has gone as far as to build a clear cell, that he claims you can actually see the "Brown's Gas" or linear HHO forming BETWEEN the plates.

Good efficiency can be had (but not so easily overunity) from a standard drycell design though. As seen in HHOPWR's experiment. Upwards to 7 MMW I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think 8 MMW is Farraday, or unity value.

The best I got was around 5 MMW but I never got into using 20% NaOH, and KOH is very hard to come by here in Canada. I'm not much for using strong electrolytes, personal choice. All of my latest experiments were using solar power anyway so I really didn't completely focus on efficiency or overunity; rather I'd let the ammonium do that; it's already COP=3 or greater off the shelf, problem is the cost of propane. My concept is, you have solar powered battery banks, and you use HHO as a fuel to heat/strike magnesium alloy until white hot (but it doesnt seem to dissapear, I've found) That heat is then used to facilitate the heat exchange and voila, refrigeration. To keep medicines cold in africa for example where there is no power, and no propane nearby. It's my belief this is more efficient than just using thermcouple DC powered fridges, and I believe that you can even combine the actual focused concentrated heat of the sun (when available) to do much of the work anyway, the cooling effect of underground, sub terrain chambers (freezer box is underground well insulated) and also raglan gunnysacks soaked in water to naturally cool the condensors.

Back to HHO though...

Something I have never seen is anyone pay attention to the "ring value" of their tubes, or stainless plates. I.e. take a steel tong and ring the plate, let's "hear it". I've never seen or heard of anyone paying any consideration to that. Maybe Stan did.If the pure water has a resonant frequency, and the plates have a resonant frequency, what if the plates were a harmonic of the water, and the entire thing was wrung in a cascade of frequencies as to create constructive wave amplification.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on February 29 2012 00:12:12
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TinMan
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4082 Posts

Posted - February 29 2012 :  04:42:12  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well it seems the frequency of water is the same as hydrogen?-not sure that this is the case.42.7khz seems to be the answer i find on the net for water but this is also extreamly close to hydrogens resonant frequency aswell,maybe because water is 2 parts hydrogen.
I started work on a multi ring cell today,and first tests were good
So much testing to do befor the good results i think lol.

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 29 2012 :  07:23:07  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol-HHO dose go bang lol
In need of a new 60 ltr bucket with screw on lid lol.
Oh -has anyone got a mop??? As i have 50 ltr's of water on the floor in the shed.

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 29 2012 :  13:35:05  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TinMan

Lol-HHO dose go bang lol
In need of a new 60 ltr bucket with screw on lid lol.
Oh -has anyone got a mop??? As i have 50 ltr's of water on the floor in the shed.





LOL nice. Hey, one thing, tinman, that I have learned, is that when you make a bubbler, and you are doing relatively hight output. In my case that meant I was running 18% NaOH / distilled water and getting about 3.5 litres per minute... but .. especially if you are exceeding that amount, by a lot... I found that sometimes, if your bubbler is small, you will make so many bubbles of HHO, that it can, actually form a "plume" of HHO, right through the bubbler... and thus a route right to the electrolyser... not a good scenario. That's why I have quite the tall bubbler. It still doesn't have a popoff valve, but I am rebuilding this setup to 59 plates I have all the goods, just gotta do a teardown, rebuild. Then I will go 120 V. Bob Boyce's rig was 120V despite it being automotive as well. If I were ever to do 12V again, I'd set it up to work properly on 12 VOLTS!!! hahaha mine was built for 13.8 .. however that was a mistake, because had I of made it 12, then I could have run a bunch of extra batteries in the diesel truck, some solar panels, etc... taken the requirements away from the alternator.



Definite Shortcomings of this setup:

1. The output travels horizontally too much, should have had more height between the tank resevoir, and the electrolyser. Next rendition will use a taller computer case, one of those old server monster high cases.

2. I'm not fond of putting my resultant product back through the fuel tank resevoir, WHEN using electrolyte. If not electrolyte is being used, it is fine, however, the more joints you have, the more places to leak or breech. It's amazing how easy a breech is, technically all joints should be stainless and made to hydrogen code, unlike this (and so many) setups.

3. Most guys are getting away from any neutral plates whatsoever. Most guys (nearly all) have two inputs and two outputs (notice I have only one) - then the bubbles do not have to meddle around the top of the electrolyser looking for the port out, that is only on one side.

4. HHOPWR Magnetic Beastie utilizes a different, more horizontal than vertical plate design with media blasted surface. He has long slots along the top of the plates to facilitate HHO movement more... however, I personally also see those as more places for current to leak. (possibly) His unit is, however, over 6 MMW approaching 7 I think. How much good the magnets do, I do not know. Seems he has sidetracked the project.

For prolonged use in my truck the PWM with constant current control was very useful. Problem with a setup like this is, after long time use, you get "current runaway". In theory any electrolyser "will draw what it draws" You can't "make it" pull more current, without making it "different", however you can stop it from taking too much current during thermal runaway, which is very usefull when your unit starts pulling more current than you feel your alternator ought to safely give it. in general, your output in brute force is set by the plate surface, and the electrolyte concentration. Only tiny tiny bubbles and a very minimum draw is seen when running distilled water. At 20% electrolyte it barfs out 2" bubbles at the top of my bubbler and I can get about 5" visible (but much longer, really) flame off the torch and melt a quarter. This unit, when run on 13.8V nominal input, will output about 1.8 lpm at very very low NaOH concentrations (that's how its running in my video) and pull, maybe, 18 amps. At very high concentrations approaching maximum (30%) it will pull big amps, like 40 or something, and it's output will approach 4.0 lpm. I am switching it over to 110V, 59-63 plates (it now has 21) and I hope to get it up to 4 lpm WITH LOW CONCENTRATIONS. So really, rather than push it right up to say 8LPM, I want 4, but with low sodium. I actually fear the high concentration electrolyte solution, more than the hydrogen, personally.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on February 29 2012 13:59:15
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 29 2012 :  14:01:50  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@TM

Can a system, truly go into resonance, based on a square wave? Most natural resonant patterns happen in sine, do they not?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 01 2012 :  06:36:22  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is kind of hard to explain but i will give it a go.
You talked about tuning the tube's a few threads back,so we will use this as an example.When you tap the tube with a metal rod or something similar to get it to ring,do you do it like a sine wave and push the tube forward and then let the tube follow the rod back?-or do you give it a quick sharp knock with the metal rod like the quick pulse of a square wave to get it to ring?
A sine wave !!when talking about a frequency that high is like slowly pushing the tube with that metal rod and then letting the tube return with the metal rod.An ac sine wave has a gentle rise and a gentle fall-this wont cause the tubes to ring or resonate.
Were as a square wave go's from 0 to a set amount of volts instantly-a good sharp wack to the tube's causeing them to ring or resonate.This resonating will give the effect of an ac sine wave as it is the tube that has to sway back and forth(at a very high speed)not the pulse which we use to create the resonation.

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 01 2012 :  07:13:17  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh by the way kcarring--what bubbler??? lol
I couldnt help myself-i just had to stick the output tube from the cell into the carby lol.The motor actualy doubled in rev's instantly,and was all good for about a minute-then the back fire,followed by a loud bang that made my ear's go into self oscillation for about 5 minutes and lots of water every were lol.(Kultus-there was defently an explosion,as the lid hit the roof lol)
One will hook up the bubbler next time first lol-i think a flashback valve may go missing from work aswell.

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 01 2012 :  13:55:07  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL thanks for the explanation on resonant patterns that makes perfect sense to me.

As for the no bubbler... I don't know, people will tell you all sorts of things, of course, but judging PURELY from my OWN EXPERIMENTS, this is what I have found:

The real dangerous of messing with HHO is the high concentration electrolyte and the actual audible sound, possibly deafening, and also those that mess with 110V/240V rectification at high amps, without mains isolation, compression of the gas. When I compared volumes in an earlier comment (and thus Kultus' comment) I was not implying that one would bottle compressed HHO. Obviously that's unadvised, I purely meant the volume REQUIRED. Any explosion of a volume under 250 mL is no big deal.

When purposely try to get HHO to detonate, I find that somewhere in the department of 17:1 air to HHO mixture gives ONE MOFO OF A BOOM. I removed a stump from the ground using this mixture, based on 8 litres off HHO. All esitmates. We had the HHO in an 18.9L bottle but we partially filled a waterbed bladder with air first, then HHO, then detonated that, which was dug well under the stump. Definitely a much bigger explosion than just pure HHO, and I think it's like any fuel right, if you want complete combustion, you mix it with air.

We prepared ourself for the rockfly, but we did not expect quite the sonic concussion effect, it was a small hydrogen bomb basically, and brought a lot of attention, and nearly our arrest. If it was in the city, we surely would have been arrested. As it were were in a very small community outside of a small town, and the police were notified, and we were able to explain ourselves, and walk free, but I'll tell you what... if we had actually had nearby neighbours (say within 100-150 ft.) we most likely would have had their ears ringing and had charges pressed against us by them. It really was that loud. I had problems hearing for 24 hours afterwards. The front end of the stump was blown to smithereens and the roots were all fractured so we were able to pull what was left, out, much easier, but all in all, it was probably not real smart. Then again, dynamite isn't the safest, either.

When using electrolyte, the bubbler also really helps clean up the product. aLL in all, it's cheaper to blow up your bubbler than your electrolyser, but, my experience has found that until you get into making 3 or 4 + lpm, often yoursetup has actually not that much combustible gas in the whole unit, to create too huge of bang, and, without the added air, it's implosion does offset the explosion, so damage done is typically minimal if your equipment is skookum. Most people get their first fun, when they decide to shut off the electrolyser first... before the output... that will flashback everytime.

PS.. it was HelzzArny's detonation that inspired me, and this is what 8 litres is like WITHOUT THE AIR ADDED. I estimate our bang was about 4-6 times this:



If you pause the film at 0.14, you can see the light... then later the the flame and sound, .. incomplete combustion. When I saw that, I thought man.. I'm never gonna do that LOL I even made a comment on his other video... but.. temptation got the best of me.
If you try it, please use caution and do wear ear protection!

This one is cool too. Note the obvious presence of air in the inlet tube... at around 0.43s.. you can see seconds go by after detonation time, he was able to half stand up, after lighting it, before it rocks...



By adding air, you change the flamespeed.
A misconception a lot of people have when they augment fuel burning with HHO is that they have to have 10 lpm or something. In reality, if you are still burning normal fuel, you don't need a whole lot. I found that 3 LPM really made a huge difference in my 386 cu. in diesel motor.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on March 01 2012 14:48:52
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 02 2012 :  04:44:27  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree kcarring
In an I.C.E we would want to slow the burn down a bit-im thinking two things here
1-dont use 100% HHO,mix it with our atmopheric air .
2nd-reintroduceing some of the steam from the exaust back into the motor-but with a hitch lol
Here is where you and Kultus may be able to help me out a bit with some info.
Here is my thought.
What if i pass this steam from the exaust between two s/s plates that have a very high voltage across them?
I have a 14 kv transformer i could use to do just this-so my question is,what happens when you pass steam through a high voltage potential?
I did a small test with the transformer.I set up two probes about 20mm apart from the transformer so as it would create a stable arc.
Then i got a squirty bottle and set the nozzle to spray a mist.When i sprayed this mist into the arc ,i got bright orange flames???
Do you think this was turning the water mist into HHO then burning it?
Your Thoughts

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 02 2012 :  08:28:37  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
new heavy duty pulse generator found?maybe



swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 02 2012 :  11:33:35  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
it works



swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions
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Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - March 03 2012 :  02:18:02  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey TM ,
You get all the good toy's , lol ... With the mist of water and orange flame , was it discolored just where the water went through the field ?
Or was it a noticeable orange flame expanding around from the mist ( may be easier to check it in the dark )...

OH yea , I found the notebook, I wrote the frequency in and here is what I had found on the net claiming to be the frequency of hydrogen
1420.405 MHz and a wave length of 21cm /// This was from an astronomy site , So , If I didn't write it down wrong and if they are correct maybe it will help ?

==================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...

Edited by - Kudzu on March 03 2012 02:19:53
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 03 2012 :  05:56:20  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kudzu
The frequency and wave length you submited are correct as dovada explained in this thread
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So i wonder if we pulsed our cells at this frequency and made the cells 21cm-what would happen?
If only i had a signal generator that could go that high.
Anyone have one???-Maybe kcarring?


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 03 2012 :  10:54:55  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok -first bubbles of HHO-a very exspencive 1 ltr a minute lol.2300 watts plus



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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 03 2012 :  16:05:06  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM

I have been doing some home work on HHO and ran across this guy that builds a dry HHO and there is 12 parts the thing I like he shows his thoughts and his mistakes you may learn from his line of thoughts. I am all new to this so I am just learning just thought it may help.

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Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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kcarring
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Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 03 2012 :  20:58:18  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@49'er Yes, good find, he has some great points. I like how he distributes his current across 4 corners, cool idea. I talk about all the downfalls to my setup, here.
You must be logged in to see this link.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 03 2012 :  23:25:31  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi 49er-yes great find,i have watched them all now lol.
This setup is about to mutate into something extra lol.
Stay tuned


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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 04 2012 :  18:34:55  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM

Why are you using swamp water with nothing mixed in it?? Why do a lot of people use 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda to 4 cups of distilled water? Electro lite is battery acid and why are they using that. Dumb questions but They need to be asked. I am going to the store for some SS plates and start on a build. It will be small but it is a learning time.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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SKYPE bxx49er
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 04 2012 :  19:28:20  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi 49er
Im still trying to understand as to why electrolite is used?
This is what i see a lot of people do. First use lots of nutral plates to drop the voltage down to around 2 volts across each plate.The result from this is a drop in amp draw thus a drop in HHO production.so now the solution is to add electrolite to bring conductivity back up because of the low voltage potential across the plates-thus increasing amps.
So my question is(and as yet i havnt been able to find an answer to)why not have a higher voltage across the plates with a lower amp draw and not use electrolite?.The net HHO output to watts in will be the same.
Now some will argue that with higher volts, all your doing is heating the water.
Well that cant be true as it's not the volt's that heat the water or the amps-it's a combonation of them both(watts in)that heats the water.
And then there is those vidio's you posted just above were the bloke is desperatly trying to get his water hot,even to go as far as heating the water on the stove???
So there seems to be conflicting answers all over the net-it would seem no one realy know's what is best.
Some use high voltages and low amps,some use low voltages and high amps.Some say the water must be cold and some say the water has to be hot.
This would seem to be one project were ther is no absolute on a starting point and i will just have to find out for myself lol.
As for the creek water-well it's closer than the house to the shed lol-and i have no water on at the shed.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 04 2012 :  19:38:19  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM

That is just about what I have learned and that is why I am going to start tomorrow in the build. I will start my build thread so we can compare notes. I will be running mine on 12v no pulse.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 04 2012 :  19:41:17  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@TM With all due respect to the fact you do great experimenting, and most of all, you do what you do.. no matter what... a possible path is just forsake all the brute force and get right into the stan philosophy from the get go. Brute force HHO production, as I do it, as most do it.. it is so far behind what is technically considered high tech (within the conventional brute force technologies, I mean) This is because the big boys can play with noble catalysts, cobalt, platinum, all sorts of stuff we can't afford, so from a purely conventional point of view, they've left us in the dust and approached slight overunities just from exotic metals.

What they haven't done, though (or, are not talking about) is the Stan Meyers methodology (speaking in a general sense here) and relooked at the whole thing as a resonant chamber, a water capacitor.

Your a talented guy, and I've witnessed (in comments) Russ himself giving you pokes... he wants you on board, I can tell.

I think you could be a great asset to that realm and bring some great stuff on over here as you go along.

I know sometimes I contradict myself and look conventional, too much .. but it's misread sometimes too. I very much believe that Stan had it. I have a very hard time believeing he was scam start to finish.

Just a thought. Maybe you are headed that way anyhow.

Cheers

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 04 2012 :  19:46:47  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@49'er Did you read that last comment to me from the fellow with the 7.3L. I guess the best he got was still under 5 on that cell, and he now looks at it, pretty much as I look at mine; Mars' comment:

"This brick was an old design and had an MMW of about 4.5 and never really put out enough HHO even when I push it to 100amps so building it so that I could shut parts of#65279; it off was a waste of time. The gaskets that I made leaked but it still paid for it's self in fuel savings. If I could do it over again I would but I would use neoprene gaskets. Thanks for the comment."

His brick is a lot like mine. My best was 4.88 MMW. At around 18% NaOH.

The only brick that has risen above everything else, that I have seen
is Larry's HHOPWR's it is quite complex. Delvis11's newer design is close.

But all of these designs are fundamental and don't compete with the most high tech hydrogen electrolysers already used in industry.

The future is in what isn't being done, but has been done? I know, it's a bit of a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but still...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - March 04 2012 :  19:54:06  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey TM,

Like always awesome work mate, absolutely awesome!!

3:26 In your latest video "Expensive HHO.flv" this is most interesting, TinMan: "The high voltage spikes that you seen on the last video, I believe are the cells acting as a capacitor".... you have the beginning of a "Tank Circuit" Tesla was well known for using this circuit to obtain resonance in much of his work, It's like pushing a kid on a swing, You don't have to use a lot of force, just get the timing right and a small amount of energy can be used to achieve much larger results. Take your HV spike TM and push it on the swing :)



OK there is possibly 2 things going on with your experiment where you had a stable arc set up and sprayed water into it.

1. The water may have been acting as a conductor, the orange luminous you saw may have been brief drawing of higher current, the more current you have across a arc the more orange it becomes, Granted water is not much of a conductor without an electrolyte, but it's breakdown voltage is largely unknown but understood by many to be quite low.

But on the other hand...

2. We know super heated water will split into hydrogen and oxygen, HV will heat water so long as the current is there, it will also ignite it quite happily.

lol Poor TinMan your just going to have to get in super close and watch really carefully for flames no no wait, You have 14KV handy maybe just set up and controlled test area in your back yard, Spray bottle with string pulley so you can stand back and set up 2 reasonable sized plates to charge, then if there is flames you should see them a lot easier.

I do wonder what would happen if the plates were set just far enough away so the water makes the plates arc, I think maybe the water then would have to take on a lot more of the transfer of electrons ... mmmm more heat :)




_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Edited by - Kultus on March 04 2012 20:43:42
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - March 04 2012 :  20:13:43  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you are trying to do HHO with electrolysis then one must use a electrolyte. As I said in my last post water is a horrible conductor, add some Bicarb or some other form of conductive impurity and you will have a much "easier" production of HHO. waters ability to "handle" electricity has a lot to do with "breakdown voltages" and weather or not the energy is flowing "through" it or "around" it. .... swap water comes with Free Electrolyte all the stuff that is already in it will likely help the conductivity of the water, but for a controlled test, measure distilled water to electrolyte (bi-carb is by-far the safest)then you will have controlled parameters to judge from.

However if you are trying HHO from the angle of frequencies / resonance then there is no need for electrolyte as you are trying to achieve the same result in a completely different way. For your build it will not be about electrical charge across the water and more about... well... ringing the bell and it is unknown as to weather or not purity would be paramount to this working every time, any element / impurity could likely change the required frequency for resonation. by how much we don't know, it may not be enough to harm performance, but I think distilled water would go best here for research purposes

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Edited by - Kultus on March 04 2012 20:51:36
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 04 2012 :  21:41:15  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kultus

Thanks for the info. I was going to start my project with 4 cups distilled with 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - March 04 2012 :  23:53:29  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Guy's,
I've been thinking about HHO production and different way's to go about it ... With a SS pulse circuit like 49er's to pulse the plate's, I'm thinkin should produce well and be able to control the AMP draw and change the frequency somewhat to get better production ...
The high voltage spike's may be a problem if they ark across the plates though .
If a SS Pulse circuit ( like 49er's ) is used it should be many time's more efficient than brute force ..

49er , Is that what your planning to power your HHO brick with ?

==================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...

Edited by - Kudzu on March 05 2012 00:02:20
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Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - March 05 2012 :  02:03:15  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey TM ,
I was reading and found this about the frequency of Hydrogen...

The hydrogen line, 21 centimeter line or HI line refers to the electromagnetic radiation spectral line that is created by a change in the energy state of neutral hydrogen atoms. This electromagnetic radiation is at the precise frequency of 1420.40575177 MHz, which is equivalent to the vacuum wavelength of 21.10611405413 cm in free space. This wavelength or frequency falls within the microwave radio region of the electromagnetic spectrum, and it is observed frequently in radio astronomy, since those radio waves can penetrate the large clouds of interstellar cosmic dust that are opaque to visible light.


If this is correct , it means just the frequency of 1420.40575177 MHz would need to be achieved ..
OR,am I thinking of this all wrong ?

==================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 05 2012 :  02:07:12  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
49 'er Most have found baking soda to be a real no-no. My early experiments, it got all gungy. If you are not using expensive stainless, then go for it, but if you've got some money into your plates, use NaOH or KOH instead. Keeps the carbon out of the equation. You won't regret it. I use 100% lye, NaOH. KOH is hard to get in Canada, but they say it is even better and easy to find in the USA.

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You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - March 05 2012 :  03:04:36  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Be very very Careful using these materials they are extremly caustic material (ACID)

Lye is NaOH and KOH
NaOH is sodium hydroxide, commonly known as 'caustic soda'
KOH is Potassium hydroxide

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 05 2012 :  03:53:55  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kudzu-the problem is getting to that frequency,it is very high.
Kultus-i have been thinking about a tank circuit.Could the return voltage from the rings be used to pulse a transistor to once again power up the rings.This would give us a self oscilating circuit.In theary it should be pulsing at the ring's resonant frequency-should it not?


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 05 2012 :  08:45:23  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ok spark mods are done.Next to make an ignition circuit.



swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 05 2012 :  08:50:47  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kcarring
Yes Russ and myself have joined forces lol.We will be building side by side but with diferent setup's so as to compare results.
Although it's a long distance partnership ,i think we will give it our best shot and see what we come up with in the end.
I am going to build a plasma reactor of my own design and incorperate that with the system.
It will also have steam injection aswell as the HHO.


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 05 2012 :  10:08:13  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kultus and kc

Many thanks for the info much to think about. When I get back from the store I will start my own thread. Thanks TM for sharing you thread.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 05 2012 :  15:46:00  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hey 49er-no prob
Looking forward to your build


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions
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Lykenth
New Member



United Kingdom
45 Posts

Posted - March 05 2012 :  18:52:02  Show Profile  Visit Lykenth's Homepage Send Lykenth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM - This may be of use to you alot! its a capacitor baced transformer that easy to change an alot less heat loss unlike a transformer

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 06 2012 :  03:32:56  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Lykenth
That is indeed interesting and a very good find.
Thanks for taking the time for diging them up
Cheers


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions
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Lykenth
New Member



United Kingdom
45 Posts

Posted - March 06 2012 :  09:57:48  Show Profile  Visit Lykenth's Homepage Send Lykenth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It was no trouble - i too am useing adapted versions of that to deal with my high volts on my generator. As He had HHO - i thought of you an that big ( I want one! ) welding unit an its losses through heat

Glad that you liked them ^_^
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 07 2012 :  15:10:52  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok ignition circuit is done.
Now to fit to motor



swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 07 2012 :  19:17:59  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM

Nice video ,The plug was very good at the high freq. Super

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er

Edited by - 49er on March 07 2012 19:18:51
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n/a
deleted



2079 Posts

Posted - March 07 2012 :  23:37:03  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
nice trigger set up, what was the size of that coil you were using?

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 08 2012 :  02:22:42  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi 49er-yes it sings at the higher frequency's
SD3T-the coil is just a GT ignition coil out of a car.It's rated output voltage is 32000 volts.
caint wait to see how the motor runs with this instaled


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions
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n/a
deleted



2079 Posts

Posted - March 09 2012 :  23:17:39  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
how goes the build there tinman. hope your safe and everything is going alright.

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n/a
deleted



2079 Posts

Posted - March 11 2012 :  03:51:47  Show Profile Send n/a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hey tinman, hows it going? hey just a idea, if you want to try is. is there a way you could take a small line from your HHO cell and run a 1/8 dia tube back to that motor you showed in the video running the alternator to augment the fuel. see if just doing that shows any performance increase in how it runs. would be very interesting to see what it would do, i understand it might effect the timing. but alot of the video's i have been watching just show people tying in a line into the vaccume line going to the fuel air mixture. just wondered if that would work? i am deffinetly not a auto mechanic just a thought? please let me know what you think, thanks SD3T

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - March 11 2012 :  07:16:43  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi SD3T
A few pages back i did just that-and caboom lol.Some dingaling decided to hook up the HHO cell without a bubbler and the motor backfired lol.
Result-1 60 ltr drum the cell was in blown apart and 50 ltr's of water on the shed floor.
I wont be doing that again lol-without a bubbler


swim at 90 degrees to the current and gain speed in two directions

skype-thetinman.69
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