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TinMan
Advanced Member


4082 Posts

Posted - February 24 2012 :  09:53:35  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok here we go
After spending much time on pulse systems, i decided to give HHO a shot.Im hopeing to be able to make an efficient system as i have done many time's with pulse systems.Anyway here is the first vidio of my HHO project-an introduction of my plan's


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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 24 2012 :  10:53:51  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM

I have never herd of the spark at the exhaust valve opening when you get to that part please do a detailed video on that. Did you make all the HHO parts or buy a kit? I do not have a lathe for turning pipe to the right size.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 24 2012 :  18:24:24  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what I learnt about the ignition of HHO it creates a vacuum because the gas returns to a water form that takes up less space, I saw this and did put the video up for a few of you guys to see of the Energy meeting I went to, You can clearly see the Air ram jump back in upon ignition, this air ram was no more than a piston and cylinder.. has always made me think since, I do understand engines, just don't have the confidence to modify one, but ...

What if you were to retard the engine in such a way so that it fired when the piston was almost bottom dead centre for lack of a better term and that way this vacuum of HHO returning to H2O maybe used.

as always just food for thought, I may try it my self if I get game, look forward to seeing your timing system TM.

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 24 2012 :  18:34:49  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh and you got to check out this video of the the guys at boarderlands sciences.. they discuss a lot but towards the end as they are describing the construction of these devices they talk about using the same surface area when choosing you wire gauge and turns for that resonant balance ... it just occurred to me that you maybe want the same effect in your tubes.

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Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 24 2012 :  18:53:07  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi 49er

I will do a short vidio on the waste spark when i get to the modification of the engin bit.
The pipe is stainless steel tube 316 grade.It is some old milk line i got from an old dairy when we built a new one for the guy back in my construction days.It is 1 1/4 inch and 1 1/2 inch pipe.This gives you about a 2mm gap between the pipe's-perfect lol.

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 25 2012 :  10:30:31  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM

I helped with the timing on a 12HP we used in a wood gas motor and what we did on that engine was back the timing up about 20* and made a new key way. The motor ran just fine. The question is the wood gas is how much different is wood gas from H??

Hi Kultus

I have to look at your video later today Thanks

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 25 2012 :  13:01:16  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kultus

Are you talking about the resonance of water to the electric charge with the pipe as the antenna?

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
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Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - February 25 2012 :  22:41:06  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Tinman,
I liked the new video .. Glad to see the HHO starting to come into play .... I got a milk line from my uncle a few week's ago from his old dairy that they had but, all he had left was the 1 1/4 , I'll have to measure to make sure that was the size .. I've been lookin for the other pieces to make a system for a while now ...
HHO was what lead me to be interested in all the other stuff .

==================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 26 2012 :  04:17:18  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kultus-the timeing system is a wasys off yet,lots of testing to do first.I could see how that may have worked with the air ram in a single fire-but what after your engin has gained running temp and the gases in the cylinder remain at a high tempreture?The other setup my friend and i have running HHO in an ICE,once the HHO is burnt the gases remain in a steam state until it is exausted by the engin.Without the muffler on we get steam coming out of the exaust port-that is then cooled and condenced by the muffler and turned back into water then.
The link you posted i watched several months ago-very interesting even they are clasic geeks lol.
]
Ok here is the motor and alternator hooked up and im running water from the nearby creek in the cell lol.No electrolite's
The plan is to have a system that will run on swamp water if that is all that is around on the side of the road lol.
The result useing just my speed controller wich only adjust the mark space of the pulses looks encouraging


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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 26 2012 :  04:18:17  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi 49er-
I have never had anything to do with wood gas befor,infact i dont even know what it is lol.
Must check it out

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 26 2012 :  08:33:50  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM

I would have never thought of controlling the alt for the HHO amps but it does seem to work very well. It even looks like BEMF to recover LOL Very nice

Doug
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - February 26 2012 :  10:28:03  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Tinman
Looks very cool.
questions; voltage into the HHO cell? I was wondering how much you would have to regulate a PMA (or will it even work) and your pipping, how important is the spacing between the inner and outer
tubes? (I assume they are stainless)

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 26 2012 :  14:44:27  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tinman: That is a good question on heat and another is, Is steam as large as the broken down atoms of H2O? my guess is that it is not, but this is just one of those things that needs to be put into play before we can answer it. It makes me wonder though, if there is an Explosion you can run your system on, where is the implosion I saw with the Air ram ?


49er: I am thinking that surface area will play a part in efficiency,

you have H2O 2 part Hydrogen 1 parts oxygen


1 part Oxygen is formed on the positive plates
2 parts Hydrogen is formed on the negative plates

now knowing that resonance, frequency and all that play a part in efficiency, I wonder does the amount of surface area per atom matter, would it be of benefit to have the negative plates around double the size of the positive plates as you only need to release these gases at that ratio.

Really just thinking out aloud, pay no mind if you think I'm mad, this is something I will ponder and work on myself at some stage, just putting it out there in case anyone else gels to my thoughts and wants to give it a shot before I get the chance.


_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Edited by - Kultus on February 26 2012 17:32:00
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 26 2012 :  17:12:18  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msmjr-It is very easy to control the voltage across the cell with your standard altinator,all you have to do is adjust the amount of current going to thr electromagnet on the rotor.I am just useing my motor speed controlor i made to do this at the moment-but this just adjust the markspace on the pulses-the pulses are a set amount.
In reguards to spacing between the pipe's,well stan's patent recomends between 1.5 to 2mm-my spacing is 1.8mm.But last night i made a new single tube cell with bigger pipe on the outer side with a gap of 4mm, and that one pipe cell put out more HHO gas than the 7 cells you seen in my last vidio at lowwer amps. So today at work i will be making the bigger cell and testing that tonight.But this cell will have an extra twist to it-just a thought i had that i want to try.
Kultus-HHO is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen-thus HHO.
I hear what your saying about the steam being less than the burning gas-this could only be true and worth looking into,but could the same be said for any fuel?. Would not it be the same after the fuel is burnt in any situation?.The I.C.E is only about 32% efficient-maybe this is one of the reasons,but how to fix it?

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 26 2012 :  17:49:19  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Argument for plate sizes still stands, as one plate is Positive (forms oxygen) and the other negative (forming hydrogen), they produce these different gases at different rates, I am sure you know all this, I wonder if there is some form of waste in our efficiency by having our plates the same size.

Size of the Fuel
Just remember we are talking "Atomising" we are taking the molecular bond and removing it, steam still has a molecular bond (holding the atoms Close together) if it did not have this bond you would be able to make HHO simply from boiling water (This can be done, but only at tremendous temperatures) So there is a good chance that there is a significant size difference Between HHO and H2O weather in it Gaseous or liquid form.

I think the Size would range from

Smallest H2O Liquid
then H2O Gaseous Form
Then HHO Being the largest as it has no bonds and
these atoms are allowed to freely move.
I maybe way off, but that's just the way
I see it happening.

I believe this size difference of the HHO and H2O is a lot lager than one may think.

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Edited by - Kultus on February 26 2012 17:51:46
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 26 2012 :  22:36:57  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kultus
About the molecule size difference, your right on the money
If we look at how much HHO gas can be made from a ltr of water then we can see a huge exchange rate

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 26 2012 :  23:18:39  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I am on the right track TM, I would bet my left one that using the vacuum from the implosion, with the right modifications to Fire timing and valve operation, the increase of productivity and efficiency would be 10 fold that of trying to use the "explosive force" which is almost non-existent in comparison, sure you see a bang when you ignite the stuff but what are we really seeing a Explosion or a Implosion ?

the engine would need to :

draw in fuel as the piston gets to the bottom of the cylinder
Fire when piston is about to make it's way back up
Exhaust as the piston comes back down. (that one has me stuck for idea's)

from what I read earlier 1L of water makes 1860L of HHO ... in that case the vacuum would have to be INSANELY powerful !

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - February 26 2012 :  23:36:11  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Kultas
Explosion pushes piston down, exhaust valve opens forced out with the piston coming back up.
HHO has to be ignited after top dead center on the compression stroke. Otherwise it would push the piston and rod out the side of the block. LOL I refer to this as permanent ventilation. hahahaha

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 26 2012 :  23:56:03  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Msmjr, I think you've missed quite a lot of what we are talking about here, Igniting HHO causes an "Implosion" a Vacuum, not a explosion with pressure, hence my talking about complete changes to the timing. I know a engine uses it's own compression to remove the exhaust.. where as in the system I am conjuring up there would be a vacuum instead of pressure at the time you would want the exhaust removed.

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  00:04:50  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Kultus
Im not sure Ive missed anything, however I could be wrong, I dont see how igniting a gas will cause a vacuum. unless you got something in mind I didnt think about. Now a 2 stoke will work as you discribed.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus

Edited by - msmjr on February 27 2012 00:13:00
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  00:47:58  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is just what happens when you ignite HHO Msmjr, read this whole thread I am sure you will catch up .... 1 litre of water makes 1865.5 litres of HHO ... Igniting it returns it to it's original form ... a much smaller form and thus creates a vacuum not pressure. the reduction rate of HHO to H2O is of massive potential.

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  01:06:38  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Kultus
Ive read it from the beginning and a few time since but because Ive never worked with HHO I wasnt thinking of it converting back to H2O. I think Hydrogen I think boom! My bad. So your saying to ignite it at the bottom of the stroke to suck the piston back up? Guess I have a lot more to learn.


Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus

Edited by - msmjr on February 27 2012 01:10:07
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  01:13:55  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's exactly what I am thinking Msnjr, and don't worry until I was showed this effect first hand a few months ago I thought the same "Boom = pressure" but in fact this case "Boom = Vacuum"

now the mind begins to boggle :D

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  02:33:32  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
lol actually both.

TRust me I have blown the *Universal* out of stuff, big time, no shortage of explosion here kids

Check this out, very good demo of both:



~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  03:30:20  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok after much thought i have come to this conclusion-and it is only mine,unproven
I agree with you Kultus in that once the gases have been ignighted there would become a state of vacume(with HHO gas only)
-but two things with this
1-There is as kcarring showed a rapid expansion after ignition of HHO.I have seen many blow ups with people's systems lol.
2-Also we have to take into account that HHO is only about 5 to 10% of the gases going into the engin-the rest being the air we breath.
Once this air is heated(with ignition)it will not cool down or contract in such a short period.
One other thing come's to mind when thinking if we have a vacume or not in this case, and that is-if we had a vacume then we shouldnt get any air flow from the exaust?.
All these things i will find out within the next two weeks or so through my own experimenting.
One thing i have found out already is the gap size between the tube's or plates.It was said in stan's patents that a 1 to 2mm gap was best-but through my own curiosity i found a gap of around 4mm to be much better.I just thought i'd make one tube with a bigger diameter tube on the outside and try it.That one tube cell put's out as much as my 7 tube cell dose.
Tonight i will be testing the new cell with the bigger outer tubes and also my other thought i had to go with it-which will give me about another 20% of gas without adding any more cells!! i hope!!

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  03:49:18  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What about a 100% HHo system TM ? Exclude all other gases then you are only working with the reaction from the HHO returning to it's H2O state, the only reason I can see for a explosion to happen is with other gases being introduced (this is also a shared view from the guy who's system I filmed and sparked all this thought of mine) With out the presents of any other gas other than the HHO and Only the HHO you will get the vacuum and only the vacuum.

Your cylinder becomes a reaction chamber and not a combustion chamber.

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  03:50:59  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And if this all works before I get a chance to build it ... Who ever builds it owes me kudos. lol :D

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Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  04:12:06  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kultus-
ok lets do some math to see how much HHO gas we would have to produce to run my small engin on HHO only.
Ok the engin is 240cc. Now lets say that its running at a modest 2000 rpm.
So now we have 240cc x 2000 wich =480000
So now we divide that by 2 because it only intake's the gas every second stroke being a 4 stroke,and that give's us 240000 cc's of gas we need.
So if we convert this to ltr's,this gives us 240. So we need to produce 240 ltr's of HHO a minute to run it purely on HHO.
I dont think this will ever happen lol
As you can see by useing the 2000 rpm set point all you have to do is look at the cc's of your motor and that will tell you how much HHO in LTR's(gee the stuff i learnt in my apprenticship did come in handy lol) you need to make each minute to run it on pure HHO.So now if we have a 2000 cc car engin-we need to be making 2000 ltr's of HHO per minute to run it.


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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  04:36:38  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are but you are assuming that you need the same quantity of HHO as you would need in Fuel for the same bang, but you don't HHO is far more volatile than any other fuel meaning you would have to use a lot less, include what were talking about with the produced vacuum and it become even more unclear, the math cannot be done without the system built and having the numbers to run off.

I can see where you are coming from but HHO is not like any other fuel.

and do remember this is purely educated hypotheticalness. I may be way off, but in saying that I just may be right on the ball too. Stanely Myer never needed to make 2000 ltrs per min ... why should we ?

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If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Edited by - Kultus on February 27 2012 04:37:27
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  08:11:21  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kultus
Stan's system always included air intake-he never ran of 100% HHO.
The problem even though you may not need as much HHO the cylender must be aloud to fill to capacity.A vacume on the inlet side will almost kill the motor anything above idle's-as in wont run.In this situation you would end up with the motor trying to overcome vacume on the inlet down stroke,then the compresion on the compresion stroke-so we are just adding one more inefficiency to the engin.
Simple test-if you have a fuel injected car (so as to iliminate any flooding of a carby)start it up and stick your vacume cleaner on the inlet-you will find the motor will stall.So the engin must be aloud to breath without a vacume on the inlet side.So we either need to let the air in or make a sh-tload of HHO lol.
Also i have just finished testing the bigger tube cell,and guess what-im going back to the small one lol.The big one with the bigger gap is not quite as good as the smaller one with the 1.8mm gap.
What i need to find now is the ratio of air to HHO that a motor requires to run?-so if anyone has this info it would be very helpful.
Cheers

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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  08:25:55  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Guys
I was thinking about that same experiment only using a vacuum camber. This is where I wish I could set 1 up real fast to test it. So if this be true youll have to deal with both. Would put the timing mark somewhere around 45deg ATDC.
Also Tinman that would be cubic ltrs yes?
Kultus Less HHO per work done, voluume is still cc's per min.
Hope you dont mind me thinking out loud here.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus

Edited by - msmjr on February 27 2012 08:30:46
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  08:31:27  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When i do the timeing mod on the motor i will be running the HHO on -i will make it so i can adjust it 90 degrease,from TDC to BDC. This way we will be able to see exactly were it runs best.I believe Kultus is right in that there will be some contraction of the gases in the cylender after the ignition of gas-how much i dont know,but we will be finding out lol.
MSMjr-would put ??? lol

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  08:56:13  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I fully understand what you are saying there Tinman, But the reaction of the HHO returning to the H2O state can be done with out the help of extra - outside, air intake at all ... and from the Math the wife did before ... 1 litre of HHO will return to 5ml of H2O That's some serious vacuum right there, for my theory to work I understand that a engine would need a complete rework ... but this is the same as trying to get a modern day TV to work from a Tesla coil or warden clyfe type power system... it's just not going to work the TV would need to be made to suit the power input ...

In this case we need a engine that can run on HHO in a vacuum state, as you do not need an out side source of oxygen to ignite the HHO, you can eliminate all the need for extra air intake, it is simply not required for the ignition of HHO as you already have your Fuel (Hydrogen) and your Oxygen. All that is left to introduce is a ignition source and without the introduction of other gases, there would be no explosion... only a vacuum.

2 things to remember ..

1. HHO is like no other fuel ... stop thinking combustion engine! we have a vacuum here when no other gases or fuels are introduced.

2. HHO needs no out side air intake to combust, it can do all it's own work from the 2 gases it has fuel(hydrogen) and it's own oxygen supply.

if someone can help me rework the timing system of a 2 stroke I can build this. I just do not have the know how or confidence to do this myself and this is the main reason I am putting all my thoughts out in hopes that someone will give them ago.

I cannot be a crazy as I sound, I know because a crazy man wouldn't ask him self if he is crazy ! :p

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  11:08:11  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Guys
You may just be right and you already get kudos from me for just thinking about it that way.
I just have a hard time not looking at it from a pratical side because for me exhaust has always had to = intake. You ARE right it boggles the mind.
I do think a 2 stroke will be hard to make work because youll have 2 ports open with the piston at bottom dead center. LOL total rework yes.
Mow that experiment needs to be run with the cylinder twice as long and laying on its side so you can measure both expansion and contraction.
OK having to pry myself away from this and leave, work vacation at the beach and yes I have my magnets. LOL Be back in a few days.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  17:15:54  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kultus
I do believe you about the vacume caused when the HHO has been burnt and this is why i will be makeing the timeing on the HHO motor very adjustable. This also means that i will some how have to make the exaust valve timeing adjustable aswell so as it will stay shut long enough to use the vacume created my the HHO returning to water.
There is one big problem with useing a two stroke engin, and that is it gets its lubrication from the oil normaly mixed with the fuel to lubricate the rings,big end and crank bearings.These three things will not like being lubricated with water lol.
I have actualy been working on an engin design for HHO to use both the explosive and contractive forces.This engin has no pistons,its a completely diferent type of engin.
But this is way down the track-first i must see how much HHO i can get for as little as posible power in.
There is still that one question that remains with me on your theroy about there being a bigger vacume than explosion with HHO-How is it that a standard engin with the timeing retarded to just after TDC will run quite fine on HHO? Dose this not mean that the explosion is greater than the contraction?

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  18:29:27  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is the adding of the other gases and fuels which allows it to Explode, that is why I am saying completly shut off all outside sources, just make it so you have a "reaction" chamber ... for get combustion all together, when you have only the HHO in your chamber you will only get the reaction of the HHO returning to water state and like I showed the Maths beofre ... 1 litre of HHO returns to 5mls of water ... that is .5% of it's original size.

If this was not the case we would all have been blown up the night of the the meeting I went to, they were compressing (pressure of the HHO being made) the HHO into the Air ram and then igniting it, it was under pressure with no relif valve, if there was any Explosion things would have catastrophically failed and stuff would have blown up. So I believe they were 100% right, No other gases makes it a reaction chamber that creates a HUGE vacuum.

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Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  19:39:43  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sounds like they had some good experiments going there
This dose sound like it would be the case,but why dose the lid on a bubbled blow of that has only HHO gas in it?
At a guess I think we get a rapid expansion then a major contraction- so how to capture both of these actions?
If we could do this we then have a very efficient motor.my new engin design would do this, but being able to build an engin in my workshop would be a major feat lol

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  21:02:38  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is a good question, I don't have a answer for that one (yet lol) But the system I saw that night had a solid stainless steel Bubbler with no relief valve....

Maybe I am thinking about this the wrong way ... but what if we waste the expansion (a 1 way valve would achieve this) Allow 1 action to be wasted for a much greater second action, the vacuum ?

Searching "Vacuum engine" will return some interesting designs other than the Stirling flame eater (which would be of no use but there are many engines that can run in a vacuum state

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  01:13:50  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I must say it is good you are back on board kultus
So much more to dijest now lol, the contraction after the burn would never had occurred to me if you didn't mention it lol
But this now brings more questions as to my engin mods lol- goody, more work lol

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  01:48:36  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks TM, It great to have some where I belong <3 .... I have no education as I have mentioned before, this allows me to think miles out of the box at the best of times, all of what I have learnt is self taught, sometimes things I come up with may seem super crazy ... but it's all educated guess work I could be 100% wrong but there is a 50% chance I am 100% correct, I like those odds :D Just wish I was a bit more handy in the shed with building and modifying things.

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  02:04:07  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Guy's,
I've just read through and was thinking of a test ... If the HHO was produced into a vacuum chamber( with a through ingnighter ).. Then the vacuum chamber filled with HHO to atmospheric psi equillivant ... With a compression tester also, a vacuum tester plumbed to show max psi and also a vacuum tester to show max vacuum on the chamber .. When fired it should show which is greater by the gauge readings ....
I have a compression tester but, none of the other thing's to make the experiment but, it sound's interesting none the less .

Edit: I was just thinking , an old A/C charge gauge set for r12 .. may be better because, it would handle the sudden pressure then vacuum either way .


==================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...

Edited by - Kudzu on February 28 2012 02:26:10
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  02:25:42  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your talking about the refill gauge for a Aircon yea ?

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If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  02:26:14  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your talking about the refill gauge for a Aircon yea ?

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  02:27:09  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yea , to do the test on a vacuum chamber ... Just a thought

EDIT: A gauge set for air-conditioner refrigerant test and fill / Like I said just a thought




==================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...

Edited by - Kudzu on February 28 2012 02:32:28
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  03:27:28  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"i found a gap of around 4mm to be much better."

That coincides with George Wiseman's theory in regards to the whole Brown's Gas theory.

I assume you've read his work? There are very few guys out there that have done as much work with HHO as him.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  03:50:04  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"HHO is far more volatile than any other fuel meaning you would have to use a lot less"

That is a relative statement. Less as in what? Mass? Volume? Volatile? What are you saying, there are many characteristics to a fuel. Keep in mind when you put fuel in a tank, it's liquid form. The amount of gas that fuel can create (because it is not exploded as a liquid) is huge. With HHO, we are merely added a gas... The tank that would hold X amount of energy stored as HHO, by comparison to gasoline or diesel, would be enormous! A HUGE volume, by comparison, but by weight.. much less. Keep in mind, your not so much combusting "HHO" - technically - there is no such thing. Your combusting Hydrogen and Oxygen in a stoichiometric mixture, combined with intake air. If the claim of "Brown's Gas" has merit, then it is very much agreed that the amount you make... is relatively small by comparison to the diatomic and monotomic hydrogen and oxygen present. (See George Wiseman's work). This linear molecule "HHO" (if it exists) may indeed have different combustion characteristics not documented, but overall, you're dealing with something that has been around since 18xx, it's nothing new. My experience is that is works excellent when mixed with diesel, there was no need for adjustments on the motor. But my diesel is very old, too. In the genset, you'll likely gain by retarding or advancing the timing slightly and you have no onboard computer to "trick" like you do in a car - that's where it gets awkward. Meaning the car with the computer is tougher than the genset.

The main key is to make the stuff efficiently. In my setup shown on my youtube channel, it's about 4.88 MMW at best. That was good enough to improve my mileage by about 10-15% as determined on the dyno, but it "seemed" more like 25% (that's what my gas bills told me). There is also the added horsepower. The real bonus was a measured 72-80% reduction in emmissions.

Check out ZFF's well documented experiment and his report on fuel savings / efficiency on a small genset like TM's.

Most wetcell configurations with stainless pipes don't work out so well. Mine didn't, which is why I then tried building drycell technology and got to a decent setup. This is because of current leakage mostly. Kind of like if you took the plates of a lead acid battery and just dropped them into a bucket of electrolyte. The case size actually matters.

That said, if you can delve into a circuit that taps into an overunity method, then the tubular setup seems to resonate better. Or not. Bob Boyce's set was plates.

My personal belief is similar to ZFF's. You are not looking for the frequency of the resonant frequency of water, rather you need to use feedback from the cell itself, to determine what the entire apparatus (your apparatus) WANTS to resonate at. The combination of the water, the pipes, everything. And then sweep that frequency, don't just pick a single frequency, find a range you think "it's singing" then sweep the range, and sweep the upper and lower harmonics of that range.

But who knows...!

On the explosion / implosion thing..
If you look at my setup, on youtube, you will see that I made a typical error: my bubbler had no blowoff valve. Well, it wasn't long before I had my first flashback. Not suprising. What was interesting though, is that my gasline is actually tubing, clear surgical tubing sort of stuff. While the explosion was definitely more robust than the implosion (water came flying out of my torch tip) .. as things settled, the liquid that had blown out, started to "suck back in", as visible by the clear tubing. So there definitely is both, but that makes perfect sense, you ignite the volatile mixture, you get water, a recombination, which reduces the volume of airspace in the environment (if enclosed and sealed).

Here is some kids screwup:



This kid is lucky he wasn't using 30% NaOH or he'd likely had scares for life and would have been screaming.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on February 28 2012 04:34:08
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  03:56:37  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kcarring
I have only read a bit of stan's work and never heard of the guy you mentioned.
By now you would know me and how i work-take a base modle and modify the hell out of it to make it more efficient lol,and with HHO production-efficiency is what it is all about.
I am much like kultus in the fact that i teach myself as i go.8 years ago all i knew was that if you turned on a radio ,sound came out lol.And today i have people replicating my circuits with great results.
If i can achieve with HHO what i have with pulse motors ,i will be most happy.
So now im off to the shed to test a thought, and add some tesla tech to my HHO unit and see what happen's.
Last night i achieved 2.25 LTRs of HHO a minute at a current draw of 3.72 volts @ 2.13 amp's . Now i have no idea if this is good or not lol.Only useing a set pulse rate with markspace adjustment only.Varible pulse generator should be complete this week.

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  04:11:22  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TM:"I have actualy been working on an engin design for HHO to use both the explosive and contractive forces."

Have you seen that youtube video of the guy that made a specific HHO engine, sort of a linear type motor? It's pretty interesting. I looked for it just now, but didn't find it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  04:28:09  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think you and I are thinking on a completely different paths Kcarring.

I have been discussing running a engine on only HHO no added gases at all, as it is not required. you already have both your fuel(hydrogen) and oxygen.

As for weather I was talking Mass, volume or Volatile? I was refering to volume.

Also no one tries to "store" HHO, you simply cannot do that with out making a material that is used in the manufacture of Nuclear bombs ... no guessing there... that substance is banned in most countries.

Just because something is not new by no means makes it a complete science and by my experience nothing is ever as it seems, especially when read from a book.

I have just been voicing my thoughts, it's only a educated guess, but that is what a forum is for...

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  05:22:45  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Kultus

Power to ya man, if you can get it running, you'll have taken it farther than me. As soon as the weather warms up, I'm gonna take another stab at refrigeration, though my measurements weren't fantastic, I had to be pretty damn close to getting my RV fridge to run off the equivalent of 200 watts solar last summer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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Kultus
Moderator



Australia
614 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  05:32:16  Show Profile  Visit Kultus's Homepage Send Kultus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
like I said to TM lastnight, getting HHO run in a combustion engine is like trying to run a modern day Television from a Warden Clyfe type power source, it just wont happen you would need to build a TV suited to the power source, in this case we need a engine that will work harmoniously with the reactions of HHO, trying anything else I feel will either be inefficient or wont work at all.

_______________________________________________________
If you don't Believe me, go back to your desk at B.P.

Never give up, it only takes one crazy Idea to go right, and your not so crazy any more - Kultus 2011

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