International Alternative Energy Center
International Alternative Energy Center
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?




 All Forums
 Technical Help and Questions
 Jig's, Coil winder jigs, Core molds/jigs and so on
 The Core
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

hkalan
Senior Member


Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  09:30:32  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello everyone,

What makes the best core...

I totally understand "Soft Iron". It is cheap and easy to find, but will begin to hold the magnatism after some time.

Now I am trying to get my head around "Soft Ferrite"... I see that I can buy it as a powder or as a cylinder and other shapes.

Is it worth the time to use Soft Ferrite, and will it hold up for a long time in a coil we use for these pulse motors ?

OR is there a better material to use for the core ?

Thanks,

Alan

Google AdSense

USA
Mountain View


TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  09:33:23  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I use soft tie wire or welding rod's-the type for oxy welding,no flux to knock off lol.By faceing the magnets out south and the coil fireing north ,the core will remaine nutral

Swim at 90 degree's to the current and gain speed in two directions while only doing half the work
>>>>TinMan<<<<
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  09:43:10  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey TM,

I watched your video about that.

I found a few factories here that I can get a perfectly shaped "Soft Ferrite" 3/4 inch by 3 inch cylinder that will slide into the spool center, add a little super glue, and all would be perfect without all the trouble.

What are your thoughts on the soft ferrite ?

Alan
Go to Top of Page

msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  21:54:17  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Hkalan2007
Go for it I want to see someone make it work. Ive tried to use a mix of iron filings and ferrite both mixed in resin and had nothing but trouble untill I bored a hole through the center and placed about 6 pieces of hanger in them. Seems they need a focal point. But I didnt do enough work with it to find out if it was better. I cant answer the whys. After my next build I plan to come back to it. Theres got to be something to it.

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - January 25 2012 :  04:05:18  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello,

I am currently using "hangers that I cut to size, and then my girlfriend bushes on a good coat of finger nail polish on each one (keeps her busy enough to not piss-and-moan that I do not give her enough attention... LOL).

It seems to work well enough, but I know in time it will become magnetized... that is why I have been looking at the "soft Ferrite"...

They make magnets from "Ferrite", so would that not become a solid magnet as well ???

There has to be a good solution to this if even South facing magnets will magnetize a core !!!

Hmmmmmmm....

Alan

Go to Top of Page

TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - January 25 2012 :  04:46:28  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi hkalan-if your magnets faceing south are as strong as the magnetic field produced by the coil and the coil is fireing north toward the rotor then the core will remain nutral.SD is haveing a slight magnetisation problem because his magnetic field being produced by the coil is a lot stronger than his permanent magnets.Ferrite will not become magnetised in it's raw form,it need's to be magnetised by a magnatron befor it become's a magnet itself

Swim at 90 degree's to the current and gain speed in two directions while only doing half the work
>>>>TinMan<<<<
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - January 25 2012 :  05:06:25  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello Tin Man,

That is great to know...

Thank you so much !

Alan
Go to Top of Page

Poppy
Average Member



USA
418 Posts

Posted - January 25 2012 :  20:27:57  Show Profile Send Poppy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Alan...

I've been using coat hanger wire for several years now and have never had a core magnetize. Perhaps I've been lucky. I don't coat them or tape over the ends they are left exposed. I don't even know what direction my magnets are facing. All I know is that they are all facing the same direction. I have used N-S-N-S magnets and don't see a lot of difference in the efficiency or speed of the motors.

Good Experimenting...
Poppy
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - January 25 2012 :  20:40:23  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello Poppy,

That is great to know.

Perhaps I am thinking to much about this, but all the answers have made me more confident in the next coils I build !!!

Thanks everyone !!!

Alan
Go to Top of Page

TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - January 26 2012 :  04:21:14  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey SD-there is a very good coil calculator us aussie's use-it's called!!!throw it together-she'll be right mate .lol

Swim at 90 degree's to the current and gain speed in two directions while only doing half the work
>>>>TinMan<<<<
Go to Top of Page

ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - January 26 2012 :  05:19:05  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Silentdeath

There is a calculation ! and i use it. I have the equations in my notebook at home. I will scan it for you this weekend.

ron
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - January 26 2012 :  07:13:42  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello Ron,

That would be so wonderful if you could share that !

That is a very useful too !

Alan
Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4427 Posts

Posted - January 27 2012 :  14:49:34  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi All

This might help some of us that want to lessen lens law a bit more

You must be logged in to see this link.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - January 28 2012 :  07:13:57  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello,

I have watched this video a bunch of times...

and I have found many factories I can buy the Fe304. It is "Dirt Cheap" LOL... I want to give this a try... They say they make a "Goop" with a paste from Germany... What would you think or recommend to mix to with ?

My thoughts are a simple silicone sealant or two part epoxy... your thoughts ???

As my coils always seem to be at least 1/4 inch away from the rotor, I could just put it directly into the tube of the spool and let it set flush with the side of each spool.



Alan

Edited by - hkalan on January 28 2012 09:56:27
Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4427 Posts

Posted - January 28 2012 :  10:50:32  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi HK

You could do just that but it would be a one time test unless you unwrapped and rewrapped the coil. So I would put it in a tube that you could put all core material in that way you could measure same wires for different core material. It may not be what you want for a permanent core but you can experiment with just one and make it a t&r coil and measure only one.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - January 28 2012 :  11:23:12  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello

I have been thinking that direction as well.

This style of core could cut the drag...

Alan

Edited by - hkalan on January 28 2012 11:36:52
Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4427 Posts

Posted - January 28 2012 :  11:42:11  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi HK

Yes on the drag so it should spin the wheel faster.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - January 31 2012 :  08:18:04  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello ron_o,

Did you ever get that information about the coils off your notebook computer last weekend ?

I am excited to see what you have !!!

Thanks,

Alan
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - January 31 2012 :  22:57:46  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello,

I am still hopeful to find a formula or web based calculator, to use to make a coil and then know what N-grade-size/pull magnets to use.

I have found these websites. It generates inductance, and shows "Magnetic B-field" on the one calculator, but am not sure if that is putting me in the right direction to know the "N" grade or pull of a magnet to go with the coil...

You must be logged in to see this link.

You must be logged in to see this link.

You must be logged in to see this link.

Here is another one I just found, but still the equations have me at a loss....

You must be logged in to see this link.

Sure would like some "Simplified" input on this !!!

Thanks,

Alan

Edited by - hkalan on February 01 2012 00:35:40
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 01 2012 :  00:44:50  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello,

This is a method I seem to "think" I can follow...

1 - Find the electric current, or "I," flowing through the magnetic coil. Refer to the design specifications for your magnetic circuit or system and look for the average or anticipate current flow. Current will be in units of amperes.

2 - Find the number of turns of wire in the coil, or "N". Refer to design specifications.

3 - Find the length of the magnetic circuit, or "L". The magnetic circuit is the length of the iron core. However, if an air gap exists, as with a "C" shaped magnetic coil, the magnetic circuit will be the length of the core plus the length of the air gap. Refer to design specifications of the coil. L is in units of centimeters.

4 - Calculate the magnetic field strength for the coil using the formula:
S = (I x N)/L
where S stands for magnetic field strength. As an example, if I is 2 amperes, N is 15,000 turns and L is 18 centimeters, S = (2 x 15,000)/18 = 1,667 amperes-turns per centimeter.

Am I in the right direction ???

I did also find a cool 3d Magnetic field software that might be helpful to some... I can not download it as I only have Apple computers... here is the video (no audio... I do not understand that), and the link to the software is below for those using Windows based computers that may want to try it.



You must be logged in to see this link.


Alan

Edited by - hkalan on February 01 2012 00:58:16
Go to Top of Page

kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 01 2012 :  01:48:55  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@hkalan2007

Will your pulse motor have a rotor? I think your core should reflect whether or not you intend on putting the rotor "to work". in my current build, it's solid state, just finished the trifilar today, I'll probably try it air core first, and maybe add some rods, but i suspect the core will only serve to slow the frequency, increase the elctromagnetic effective, and bring the efficiency down. The exception of course would be if the aircore just remains saturated non-stop, I guess. Watch Twalley's latest video and listen to him talk about the breaking down of eddy currents with the rods - it makes sense to me. You don't want a "good transformer" (as I see it) in Bedini, you just want a momentary field, to then collect and put to use the voltage spike, the passing of current is inherent, but it's not overly desired. Other desulphators on the market pulse HV with a square wave pattern - but they heat the batteries and the dendrites soon come back because their really just a method of equalization not a total restructuring of the entire plate surface; like a Bedini charge gives (or so the theory goes, but I tend to believe it). As far as a motor is concerned; it's a pretty lousy motor with little torque, you can see Tinman's work has proven that, better can be achieved - by far.. and as far as using ferrites; that makes it far lousier generator too. You wouldn't catch any commercial wind generator company putting out a permanent magnet alternator with ferrites. In as far as the rotor slowing, under load, and drawing less, unlike John's website where it is noted as an anti-lenz effect; this is totally fals - to me anyway -it's simple math, less switching, less current draw, grade 5 math at work. There are quite a few guys out there who've tried magnetite, have you seen the vids? Not to any success though that I have seen. - i don't think, they don't seem to "report back" any good news? I believe Peter Lindemann talked about polarizing the magnetite right after pouring it. Ferrite recipes are extremely technical and guarded secrets, there are only a handful of companies in the whole word, putting out "The Best" ferrite cores... however, that's for high speed switching - I don't think you'll get that out of a SSG, for one thing the coils we build have no e-core, no surround, so they are extremely lossy 360 degrees around the thing, very crude in fact. If you want a very high speed , highly efficienct Bedini (SS), I'd suggest you look into Ferroxcube parts and wind your own potted core or e-core bifilar. I don't imagine any of our SSG's as being high tech, high speed efficient coils, at all. I've never seen anything (or heard of) running over 15 kHz or so, which is, really quite slow. One other thing if you are using the rotor as a generator, something to consider anyway: it is common knowledge in build a wind turbine that you build your collector coil (gen coil) of a certain depth such that the passing magnet can penetrate that depth of coiled wire. I don't see people in this realm paying any attention to that whatsoever, their gen coils are long, much longer than the magnets are thick. not something you would ever see in a wind turbine; for good reason.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on February 01 2012 02:13:46
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 01 2012 :  03:19:43  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello,

Thanks so much for the details.

All my general thoughts and experiments are having a rotor. That is why I have been looking deeply into the core and the construction of the coil, and the magnet size.

Perhaps I am more focused on the time the coil is on (in a north firing coil to north magnet) for the "repel" factor to gain additional torque for the spinning of the rotor, and the ability to avoid the core being magnetized, as well as the immediate drop of the magnetic field when off for near Zero Eddy Current drag.

TinMan has the wonderful video showing the "South" out rotor. I just want to try the north to north repel as a personal choice.

The last entry I made was enquiring about a formula or calculation I could follow the make a "not so crude" coil and have a magnet on the rotor that would be a match to the coil for better performance of moving the rotor...

From my limited experiments over the last 90 days, I am told that the magnets I have on the rotor "may be" too strong or not strong enough, thus my quest for a formula or calculations for a coil and magnets to be balanced or paired for best performance. (Spacing between the two is a totally different song... LOL)

We see how the SSG circuit can be modified to do many wonderful things to make the coils fire and collect the back spike of voltage to charge a battery, but I do hope that I may soon understand a formula or calculation that will balance the building of an electromagnetic coil to match the size, "N-grade", or magnetic pull of the Neodymium magnet on the rotor that the coils cooperate with in "harmony" (if you will). That also brings me to why I am so curious about the magnetite (Fe3O4) to lessen or eliminate a Eddy Current drag and allow the magnetism of the coil core to immediately drop without Eddy currents when the coil turns off.

I see so many mathematical equations that are far advanced to my basic university level math knowledge, but I am sure there is a simple way to explain this without so much technical jargon.

I am still learning here, so I am a long way from a quest to seek the mystery of "Over-unity". I just hope for a well balanced coil and rotor magnet pair without drag for now LOL.

Here is a video I se how to mold the Fe3O4... as well as what I am trying to understand about coil designs.





Thanks so much !

Alan

Edited by - hkalan on February 01 2012 04:57:32
Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4427 Posts

Posted - February 01 2012 :  09:52:00  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi HK

I think you are on track for a very good coil. How did you align the core, North to one end( my guess) with a South magnet on the end you want to use to face the wheel?

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 01 2012 :  10:42:43  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello 49er

All my coils are North firing.

I have tried both north out and south out magnets. At this time they are north out.

Alan
Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4427 Posts

Posted - February 01 2012 :  10:47:01  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi HK

Miss under standing, In the last video the speaker said that you align the magnetite in the core. That is what I was getting at.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4427 Posts

Posted - February 01 2012 :  10:56:17  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi HK

Now that I have watched the last video 2 X it would seen to me that they are putting the mix in with a pulse going into it while the core is wet and that is the way they align the core??

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 01 2012 :  11:21:52  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello 49er,

I was thinking that too... but am not sure. I am still looking at that more.

I still hope to find the formula to pair a coil and a magnet with the current pull to it. Do you know of such a formula (that anyone could understand).

I hope ron_o logs on with the calculations he said he has on his notebook computer, to compare it to the links with the calculators I found above, to have a better understanding of this.

Alan
Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4427 Posts

Posted - February 01 2012 :  11:53:15  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi HK

No I don't have that formula, I Depend on Ron for the real technical stuff and he is very busy some times but he will get back with you. Ron has always been very good with his INFO

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 01 2012 :  12:05:32  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello 49er,

I read this in the comments on the coil video on YouTube...

"Stopping the cogging effect is crucial, but we know how to do that with a small neo per core.
Using magnetite for the core is cool and it's easy to make your own cores with powdered magnetite and a bonding agent - plus it's simple to align the core material as it cures with a set of small neo's."


Alan

Edited by - hkalan on February 01 2012 12:07:01
Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4427 Posts

Posted - February 01 2012 :  12:27:04  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi HK

That would suggest that you would put north on one end and a south on the other end until it drys But does that align the material?? seams it would but can you tell if it does??????????

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 01 2012 :  22:53:21  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello 49er,

I would guess the same.

That is what I am going to try....

Alan
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 04 2012 :  09:30:32  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gentlemen,

I am still seeking knowledge of how to make a great coil, and have the right size magnets to match on the rotor.

I have found these online calculators... I am not sure how to read this with, for example: the "permeability" has different measurements to select, and I am totally lost on that aspect... Am I in the right direction and could you cast some sunshine over this very grey area for me ??? Or send me to a link to learn.

You must be logged in to see this link.

You must be logged in to see this link.

You must be logged in to see this link.

You must be logged in to see this link.

Your input is greatly appreciated !!!!

Alan
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 06 2012 :  04:33:09  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello,

Poppy is trying Fe3O4 for a core, and in my search to assist, I came across this information on the WEB about "Aligning the Magnetite" core..

Can't hurt to have this information in 2 locations... as we both have the same interests in this.



I still hope to have a formula to make a perfect coil with magnets to match for a minimal drag rotor.

Alan
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 06 2012 :  04:45:19  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello,

In my quest for a perfect core and coil size... and the fact that my apartment does not have the space for a workshop, with a nice work bench holding a wide assortment of power tools to be as creative as I would like.

I received some samples of different plastics I can get for pennies from a China factory, and the shipping to Hong Kong is near nothing..

Have a look at the video and give me some feedback on different sizes that would be good to have for different coil sizes.



Thanks,

Alan
Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4427 Posts

Posted - February 06 2012 :  09:13:36  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi HK

I like working with at least .200" thick if your going to tap it and I don't know if your going to make the steep coil, I think you are so if you can make it so you can add the second end after the coil is raped that might help in the rep process. I guess what I am saying is can you thread both ends of the tube and then thread the end caps on. That would be in my line of building things so 1 you could fill the core and then thread on one or both ends to wind the wire. just thinking out load.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 06 2012 :  09:29:44  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello,

Any coil size is what I am thinking. The main thing is that they will always be uniform.

Different diameter ends and core for different size wires used.

Spools are handy, but I can't always get the same size when I want to build a new coil...

Alan
Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4427 Posts

Posted - February 06 2012 :  09:31:51  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi HK

What will your biggest wire be?

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Go to Top of Page

kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 06 2012 :  16:22:33  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Hk,

I'm pretty sure you are mainly referring to the power coils here, but if the video you made, is the one I remember, you were also running gen coils, from the rotor, too.

One thing I haven't seen - is anyone sort of following the baseline set of rules for windgenny permanent magnet alternators and that goes something like this:

Obviously, if you use neo's instead of ferrite you get a strong induced current; but - we've all read, don't use neo's on a Bedini; that said, it is done, and I've even seen John doing it, so done right it's fine, I'm sure.

Now, what I'm getting at is the relationship of the dimension of gen coil versus magnet size.

I've heard different rules of thumb; and I'm not going to claim if one is correct, or the other... but of all that I have read what seems to make sense to me, is:

Don't make the gen coil any "deeper" than 1.5X the depth of the neodymium.

Allow enough space in the center (the air core) for the magnet width to be equal to the coil core width. In other words, don't have the magnet wider than the coil has diameter in the air core, let it pass along one side. I think this has to do with avoiding clipping of the AC wave.

All I have seen out there is ridiculously long spool sort of coils, that it would appear, anyway, that the magnet (especially if ferrite) could not possibly fully penetrate with its passing field.

Hugh Piggott has a great document that I have posted in the pdf section.

Also, gen coils are often triangular or oval, not round.. in fact I have never seen a wind genny with round coils. Gauge and number of turns should respect desired voltage and current output, at desired RPM, under a typical load.


Just thoughts, no "answers"! :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 06 2012 :  20:51:01  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello KC,

Those are great thoughts !

My focus is electromagnet coils, not generator.

Mainly to turn a rotor that will drive a generator.

Where is the PDF section with the document you spoke of from Hugh Piggott.

Thanks,

Alan
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 07 2012 :  00:33:25  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey SD,

Everything I read says the same... to have the material aligned magnetically inside before it sets. When the coil is on, it will be magnetically perfect.

I can see how that works... when it is just a powder it will lay in every direction, then once mixed in the epoxy, it is unable to move freely... thus it should be aligned before the epoxy sets.

I have thought "why would it not become magnatized permanently after a while", but I read the many particles of Black Iron Oxide do not allow it to do that...

I accept that as I do not know the science behind that, but it been done by scientists and their proven experiments to prove so... I have to try it to see for myself, and that is the plan !

A bumble bee should not fly because their wings are not big enough, but they fly anyway... What is on paper and what is in the real world are not always the same... I accept that.

I just want it to work... LOL

Alan
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 07 2012 :  06:53:43  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Greetings,

I do not think I am making myself that clear in this post... How can I say this... Here is what I am trying to say... and I am trying to say it as simple as I can because I am still very new to all of this !!!

For argument sake, lets stay with the foundation of the Bedini SSG with North out magnets on the rotor to make it uniform.

An Electromagnet creates a magnetic force when the coil is on. That magnetic force should have a value for each coil anyone makes. Now we add magnets on a rotor to make it spin... Do you think the magnetic force of both the coil and the rotor magnet be a factor in how we build our systems to achieve efficiency ??? I do, that is why I am looking at this side of the system.

To make an electromagnetic coil for a SSG pulse motor, and have the magnet on the rotor match (Brmax Gauss value), there should be a formula... Lets say for a North firing coil (with an iron, ferrite, or Magnetite "Fe3O4" core) and a North out facing magnet (Brmax Gauss value) on the rotor.

Somehow, a formula should calculate and tell me the Brmax Gauss value of the North firing coil, then I can have a magnet on the rotor (north out) that will be placed to properly be repelled by the north firing coil every time the run coil will fire.

Let me explain my thinking more clearly.

Lets say I have this as a run coil.... (to keep it simple lets only say ONE wire, Not a Bifilar for this example)

Coil Length = 3 inch (76mm) long coil,
Diameter of Core = 3/4 inch (19mm) diameter core (.375 inch radius),
Number of Turns = 450 turns of wire on it,
Core material = "Ferrite (manganese zinc)"
Amps = 110mA (as a general number from past experiments I have done)

I would guess that the first thing I need to know is the permeability of the core material as that is an unknown, and in this example we are using Ferrite (Manganese Zinc) that is readily available world-wide in a 3/4: diameter by any length (3 inch for this example)... Here is what I have found to give me a general permeability number for this material in the equation I am trying to achieve...



So now I will say the value is 1,600 for the equation.(relative)

Now lets enter all the information to calculate what I have listed above, in an online calculator I listed several times in the thread...



I feel that from the calculator that I should use magnets on my rotor that have a Brmax Gauss value between

13,061 and 13,200 Gauss like this magnet.



The other factors I now need to calculate in the equation is the distance between the rotor and the coil. So this brings up a new question... Should this distance of say 1/4 inch require one to increase the magnet Brmax Gauss ???

I just feel that an engine and a transmission need to be working together, just as the coil and the magnets on the rotor... I do not think people should just buy any size magnet and put it on a rotor... there should be a foundation and an EASY equation to do this !!!!

Do you understand where I am going with this ?

I do not know if I am on the right track or in the right direction, but I am trying to understand an educated method that could be less complicated...

I would love your input !

Thanks

Alan

Edited by - hkalan on February 07 2012 07:36:50
Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4427 Posts

Posted - February 07 2012 :  07:36:51  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi HK

Just reading your thread for the second time and had a thought How are you going to test the mixture to tell you if you have the Black Sand aligned North out? Does it hold a magnet pole?

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 07 2012 :  08:05:08  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello

I assume only when the coil is on.

I have ordered 3/4 inch molded ferrite cylinders that are cut to 3 1/8 long, and I will compare with the magnetite.

Alan
Go to Top of Page

TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 07 2012 :  09:36:56  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi guys-well i am having a go at makeing a core as has been pointed out.I am useing that devcon 2 part liquid steel.So i filled a coil with it and sat 2 pieces of plexiglass on each end and placed a north magnet at the rotor end and a south magnet at the other.Just by sticking a magnet on the outside of the part A pot(the liquid steel part)it has a very strong pull to the pot and all the liquid steel in the pot start's makeing this big rough looking mountain thing inside the pot lol.Will see how it performs tomorow after work and let you's know.

Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4427 Posts

Posted - February 07 2012 :  16:06:37  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi SD3T

That is what HK is trying to do with the black sand. If you want some just put a magnet in a cord and drag it out at the beach you will have more than you can carry in ten minutes. Probably down at the Big river you could do the same...

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
Go to Top of Page

TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - February 07 2012 :  17:02:10  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Guys-is this black sand as you call it ilminite?

Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4427 Posts

Posted - February 07 2012 :  17:22:51  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM

Here in the states I believe its called hematite

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 07 2012 :  18:47:43  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey TinMan

Fe3O4 is black iron oxide. I mostly hear everyone call it "magnetite"
Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4427 Posts

Posted - February 07 2012 :  18:55:46  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi HK

Just don't call it leaverite

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
Go to Top of Page

hkalan
Senior Member



Hong Kong
1019 Posts

Posted - February 07 2012 :  20:49:22  Show Profile  Visit hkalan's Homepage Send hkalan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good Morning Gentlemen,

Has anyone thought about the variables to make a simple formula for a SSG coil match with the rotor magnet ?

So I will ask again... is my first calculation about the coil Gauss/magnetic force correct ?



_________________________________________________________________________

I have found another online calculator that will calculate the pulling and repelling force of magnets at a given distance... I would think this could be useful to know how to gap the coil from the rotor, and not have to guess if we know the force of the magnet and the coil.

You must be logged in to see this link.

Your thoughts... ???

Alan

Go to Top of Page

49er
Administrator



USA
4427 Posts

Posted - February 07 2012 :  21:02:17  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi HK

I think I asked this before? what wire size will you be using and that will give me the MA number I need to calculate it.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
International Alternative Energy Center © 2000-2009 ForumCo.com Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 1.64 seconds. Snitz Forums 2000
RSS Feed 1 RSS Feed 2
Powered by ForumCo 2000-2008
TOS - AUP - URA - Privacy Policy
ForumCo Free Blogs and Galleries
Signup for a free forum or Go Banner Free