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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - March 01 2012 :  16:57:18  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Sampu is my 'go to' circuit, so it charges all my bigger batteries.

Right now I'm working on the 230cca's (I have a pair of them).

By your chart, they should be about 30ah (though that seems a bit high to me, but what do I know..).

I am seeing good results with the little SS unit.

I now have 20g and 18g wire to play with and my shipment of 2n3055's came in today, so this weekend I'll have a bigger 3T SS unit running (work schedule permitting).

Again, by your chart, I know I should be working closer 1.5amps.

So I know I'm 'way' behind the curve right now with the little SS unit.
But I like it and proved to myself I can build it, run it and it has good results.
Time to build a bigger one!
Then we'll really see what results I can get bringing these batteries back.

I also believe (and Mag correct me if my wrong), that the 'cap pulser' is to 'wake up' the battery so it 'can' be charged.
Not necessarily a charging circuit.

One more step before throwing the battery away.

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 01 2012 :  19:41:01  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Like the doctors say YOU CAN"T SAVE THEM ALL

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 01 2012 :  19:41:18  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My INTERNET screwed up again and I posted twice Sorry

Edited by - 49er on March 02 2012 10:16:37
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - March 01 2012 :  23:51:15  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@olddawg i dont want to give you the impression cap pulsing is just no good at charging batteries, i just haven't had much luck with it. the whole idea of charging a capacitor and discharging it into the battery in timed intervals is not so different than what is already going on in a regular ssg but i find the batteries like the higher frequencies. the cap pulsing is usually under 1hz. however Bedini uses it in a lot of his chargers so i don't know maybe it can work well in certain conditions.

but if you think about rejuvenating a battery, it is said that the high voltage pulses is what breaks down the sulfate, so if we assume a high voltage carrying more of a kick will break the crud down faster, then a capacitor discharge seems like it may be suitable for that. like you said like one last method to try before giving up on a bad battery.

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  04:32:10  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have 5 or 6 72 Ah batteries, 12V, that I want to parallel. The leads coming off each one is actually two wires, and there is no gauge written on it, but I would guess 8 gauge. When I cut and bare the ends I was able to then (just) fit both, put together into a 6 gauge terminal end. So let's call the output wires 6 gauage for arguments sake.

Now.. when ganging them together...

Can I use 3/4" copper pipe to come up with my final "delivery" of the combined output?

The idea would be to have adequate coverage for a 1500 watt inverter. Not that I'd load it down to a full 1500 watts.. I think the thing is only good for 1200 continuous... but... given the battery ratings (3A/35 watts max per battery X 8 batteries per cell X 5 cells = 120Amps) - they could actually do it, if I built it right. Or close.

Thing is, these are not deep cycle batteries, they are groups of SLA UPS batteries, so they are meant for steady hard discharge, then immediate recharge.

Originally they were 48 volt cells (big metal trays of 8 x 9Ah 12v's), but I switched them to 12's and made sure each individual battery has 10 gauge wire, proper soldered terminals, etc.)

I'm wondering if I can get around building terminal block and using 2 gauge wire. I would then use 2 gauge wire from the pipe, to the inverter, though. Well, 2 for the red, and 1 gauage for the ground/black, actually. I would keep all of my distances as short as possible, perhaps 3 feet of copper pipe to parallel all cells, and then 2 or 3 feet of 2 gauge wire to the inverter.

Basically I wanna pull 800 watts of it. Maybe 60 - 70 Amps Max. Typically, a small microwave which I will make sure is below 1000 watts. The rest will be drills and tools etc, all of which I will make sure are below 1000.

My solar bank inverters are all 2 gauge with terminal ends, but this system is portable, all built on an upright dolly. I've read, for example, here: You must be logged in to see this link.) that 2 gauge is good for 100A. but how does a 3/4" copper pipe, compare?

Thanks for any advice

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on March 25 2012 04:41:13
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  06:45:27  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Kcarring
I recently started weighing things. I took a page out of my daughters cook book. A certified pastry chef dosent measure volume (1 cup,2 cups) they weigh everything. So 6" of copper pipe/6" of cable, They shoul weigh the same. Just my thoughts but seems to make a lot of since.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  12:25:35  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

I use the 3/4" copper on all my battery banks and I feel they are good for 200 amps
Also your UPS batteries I think will take the lost of 800 watts but not for long 4 minutes max and then they will start to melt. LOL
Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er

Edited by - 49er on March 25 2012 12:28:09
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  12:56:46  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gentlemen, I wish to thank you all for your assistance and patience in aiding/teaching me how to bring these 2 230cca batteries back to life.

When I started with them, neither would hold better than 9v and neither would take a convention charge.

The Werker 230 now charges right up to 15.5v and holds 12.64v
The DH230 is a little behind, but goes 14.99v and holds 12.34v

Both once again start the tractor!

My question for you is;
Since they are CCA's and not meant for slow dis-charge I figure the 3.5-4hrs to dis-charge to 11.9's (1.2amp rate of dis-charge) is all I'll ever see out of them.

No dis-appointment if correct here, just attempting to determine where in the arsenal of power I'm going to place them.

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  13:00:42  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks 49'er. The batteries are rated to discharge at a maximum 3A, or 35 watts ea. they specifically say, in fact, they are not made to discharge slow. If you think about when happens when a large commercial server network goes down... you are taking hundreds of watts, that needs to be instantly powered by inverters; and thus, these batteries. The group at maximum is rated to 1400 watts discharge. (35 watts X 8 batteries X 5 banks = 1400 watts) That would impose a 3A load through each battery running 10 gauge wire. In the case of 800 watts, you have
800 watts / (40 batteries) = 20 watts per battery. 20 watts / 12.4 volts = 1.6A imposed on each battery. I've tested each to easily handle that load, they handle a 20 watt incandescent bulb just fine. I highly doubt they will melt, and 4 minutes runtime is pretty unrealistic....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  13:36:27  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by olddawgsrule

Gentlemen, I wish to thank you all for your assistance and patience in aiding/teaching me how to bring these 2 230cca batteries back to life.

When I started with them, neither would hold better than 9v and neither would take a convention charge.

The Werker 230 now charges right up to 15.5v and holds 12.64v
The DH230 is a little behind, but goes 14.99v and holds 12.34v

Both once again start the tractor!

My question for you is;
Since they are CCA's and not meant for slow dis-charge I figure the 3.5-4hrs to dis-charge to 11.9's (1.2amp rate of dis-charge) is all I'll ever see out of them.

No dis-appointment if correct here, just attempting to determine where in the arsenal of power I'm going to place them.

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!





Sorry folks... I think I answered my own question (took a beverage to get there)...

Take the new one I bought last year and drain it/time it at the same rate and I have a baseline to go by.

Since I just finished today's run, it will be tomorrow's test run.


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  14:40:40  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

Just wanted to cover my @ like SD and TM says look for smoke but with a battery it melts. LOL

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  14:44:20  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Each battery is going to be different and should still be better each and every D&C. Just keep tract of the times and please post so all can share.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  15:57:59  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 49er

Hi ODR

Each battery is going to be different and should still be better each and every D&C. Just keep tract of the times and please post so all can share.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er



I agree with you to a point.
I do believe a battery will do what it can and not beyond.
Question referred to anyone possibly knowing that point.

Tomorrow I'll have a good idea of that point with the newer battery.

I've gone from 1/2 hour drains @ .5amp to 3.5-4hr drains @ 1.2amps

I'll post my results from tomorrow's test.



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  17:12:23  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

You have a 33 AH battery and at 1.2 AH draw that is a C27.5 and that is a battery that is 14% of what a new battery should do.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  17:27:08  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@49'er I hear you. And your comment does have merit, we are talking used batteries and 800 watts from 12V is a *Nice*load of amps any way you look at it. One of the things a lot of people (and me in the past) neglect is good even distribution. uneven resistance through the network can place incredible loading on a single battery, or not taking a pole from each end of the parallel network...and like you say, if for one bad connection something goes awry and a single bat ends yup to taking 5-10A load, poof, smoke.. crazy.

In reality it'll be very unlikely that it will see 800 watts, I just kind of want to build it as such, because it will see 2-400 watt loads. I did a test on a single bank, running that bank (8 * 9Ah batts for a theoretical 72AH) starting at 13.05V running 65 watts of 12V TV & VCR load for 4 hours, after rest voltage was 12.8. So, I figure it can do double (under some duress, but doable) That'd be 130 watts. X 5 would equal 650 watts. That's about 16.25 watts on each battery. Perhaps that is a good "max" for the network. If you think about it, your average AC drill consumes at least 130 watts and that's not under load. I have one variable speed drill that is rated at 120 VAC / 6A. Granted that will be when you are putting it to hard work, but that's what we do with a drill... That's a friggen 720 watt drill... that alone on an inverter might require 800 watts...

12V figures are definitely a bit staggerring.

So 49'er

When I hook it up and run 650 watts I'll be sure to have it on film and if she smokes you can spit your popcorn and laugh at my silly fool ass. haha Many years ago i was out logging in the middle of nowhere and I had bell house on choker line crack, and it would have brought down a ($10,000 per hour) operation, so I took 3 Cat batteries hooked 'em in series and welded it, dead short right through the welding rod LOL It wasn't pretty, but it worked. That was laughable. I got some sneering looks, but at gist of it, was, the fact, had it of broke... I'd have been the dead guy, possibly, no one else LOL

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on March 25 2012 17:49:27
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - March 25 2012 :  17:35:30  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Get back to you tomorrow after I test the newer battery.

I'm expecting some time improvement, but not much..

We'll soon see...


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 26 2012 :  01:34:32  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote


~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - March 26 2012 :  07:43:07  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Going in later today, so had some time this morning to run the test with the new battery.

It's also a 230cca standard lead acid battery

I'm drawing 1.28amps

The new battery went 5 minutes down to 11.93v from 12.74v.

Wow! Didn't expect that at all!
Neither of the older batteries have held 12.7's
Both will go 3.5-4hrs

So much for the baseline I was hoping for...

Since all 3 are 'starter' batteries and meant to be drawn hard/quickly, have I conditioned the other 2 to slow draw?

That would be an unexpected plus!

I've put the new battery on the convention charger to insure she's up to full charge and I will re-run the test.

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 26 2012 :  08:38:22  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Sounds like its low on water.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - March 26 2012 :  09:11:35  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 49er

Hi ODR

Sounds like its low on water.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er



Thank you!
Will check!

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 27 2012 :  09:37:38  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

What was the out come on the battery??

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 27 2012 :  16:42:13  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@49'er I picked up a couple of Interstate C3 2200 Workaholic batteries from the dump, nad I hooked up my circuit to a whole bank of 12v's, so that's 8X those ups 9aH batteries and tried to get either battery charging... one reads 6.32V, and the other about 4.5V.. and the circuit wouldn't oscillate. So I tried to bump start it off the B&C of one of the transistors with a 1.8k resistor, wouldn't go... tried many times with the pot at various points... and so then I hooked it back up to 24V to charge a 12V like I had last night, and 1st try, boom.. started running. So it's not a bad connection in the circuit.... any advice?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 27 2012 :  16:55:13  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

you need a KHz meter to see if it is working some times because of the very high resistance in the battery. It won't show and amp reading but you can see a freq. come up on the meter. I have found this problem only 2 times. So what you found was a quick way to bust the resistance or as you would say it is very sulfated.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - March 27 2012 :  17:40:09  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 49er

Hi ODR

What was the out come on the battery??

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er



Was low on water and it's awaiting it's turn on the cycle D/C.
The 'original' 230's have preference.
This one has it's place in line.

Reason for no report...

I'm within a 1/2 hr of changing over to it and do it's draw.

This was simple with 2 batteries...
Now to work in a schedule for 3...

Full report coming, work just gets in the way of my hobbies.....



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 27 2012 :  17:54:43  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@49'er I think you are exactly right. I don't have the little LED circuit hooked up either so that was of no help. It was actually running and I didn't know it... here is the worst (voltage wise) of the two, she came home from the dump reading 4.6V or something, ... low... the wind is picking up so I'm gonna go for an afternoon sail and let this blow up my house while I'm not around After about 10 or 15 minutes the only noticeable change is that it does not seem to "dip" to it's lower voltage, the swing doesn't go as low, but the top end is not increasing yet; though the ammeter shows the same kind of progression, it isn't dipping as low either.





~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on March 28 2012 01:09:02
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 28 2012 :  09:11:25  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

Don't try to rush it, charge for 5 hrs and discharge. But don't wait go right back to charge for 8 hrs and discharge again don't wait. Do this for 4 times and after the last discharge let it rest 10 hrs and see where it is at. That usually tells you if it will come back at all..

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 28 2012 :  14:30:45  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Doug.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 28 2012 :  14:54:29  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

Let me know how it turns out.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 28 2012 :  15:12:34  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TinMan

Hi 49er-thanks for the link,i see they dont like holding charge much and dont like a DC recharge either.


I ran into several banks of these in logging camps, that were still in use 48 years after production. CPR sold a huge load of them to Colson Forest Products, my employer at the time.

Tin; what exactly do you mean, by "they don't like a DC charge"?

49'er is right you can abuse the crap out of these batteries for decades, half charge, full discharge, overcharge - they don't really care because they only use sodium hydroxide and the nickel and iron don't experience the anomalies of an acid reaction. You asre right, they will typically, when old, discharge faster so they need to be worked daily, as 49'er says, always getting at least a part charge. That said, we'd arrive in a camp that hadn't seen a soul for 20 days and they'd still be 70%. Hell, one time they were dead, half frozen slush, and they still thawed and fired up. Annually you can replcae the electrolyte too, and buy it easily.

I don't quite understand what you mean by taking a DC charge, are you suggesting that from what you read they are inefficient, at taking/accepting the charge? I could see that being slightly possible given the nickel / NaOH. Their power density is low I think, though they aren't "big", they are only single cells, so in essence they are big heavy units which did pose a problem for EV's at the time, somewhat.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 28 2012 :  15:24:38  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@49'er i postponed the running of "worst" of the two... the one @ 4.32 volts. The only real "progression" there was, all in all "the jumping around of meters stabilized" somewhat - not so much swinging. it went up to about 9.6 at one point, but then fell to 9.0, and appear to *possibly* dropping, not sure tho. It would not even give a blip of light when loaded. That said, now that I've read your instructions, at some point I will take it back up and load it, but I imagine it will drop real fast, in minutes as it did anyway, unloaded.

The other one, on the other hand, straight from dump found at 6.32, fired up a 1 or 2 million candle 6V flashlight bulb (incandescent spot light) good and bright. So I through it on and it's been going for about 18 hours, it is at 7.47 now, ever so slowly climbing, bubbling but not vigorously. All last night i had the circuit only drawing about 250 mA, and then turned it up to an amp input this morning. Not sure when to call it quits, but for now it's going. I suppose if it just does not want to hit 7.5 and do hard cold boil by supper time, I'll discharge it. I run into the situation (a lot) where a battery will go up, but not quite enough to rapid boil, so I guess I just have to learn when to call it quits and do the "non-delayed" discharge/recharge cycling more religiously. Or, maybe, my circuits are just too small for these big batteries, I don't know. The other thing I am unsure of is when to have the caps on, off or loosely on, for example, if im out, and run the risk of it vigorously boiling when im not around, should that cap not be on, but loose enough for the hydrogen to escape.

Speaking of that... these being about 220 a/H (I think) C20 would be what 10, 11 amps? Seems a bit high of a load for an unknown battery but...

Lets say you got a 50 watt halogen rated at 12V. If that normally drew about 4.2A, let's say, then would it not provide only about 17 watts on 6V.

Point being can you tape bulbs rated at a higher voltage, work out the resistance, and then configure them to constitute a load for a lower voltage, and make it up by adding parallel additional bulbs etc.

Hope u follow me

Cheers

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on March 28 2012 15:49:51
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 28 2012 :  16:18:56  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

I think what you are asking can you use 12v bulb on a 6 volt battery?? yes and can you get a amperage off it, yes with a meter I am no brain it is just easer that way. Yes I use 2 12v head lights on one 6 volt to drain it. Again use what you have on hand but I haven't got a amp draw yet. I have been doing that to equalize a set of batteries so they are both drawn down together to the same voltage and try to make a matched pair out of them. This has worked to a given point, I have been able to keep them to .05 volts which is not to bad but it does take time and have to be charged together. The ones I have on the bench is a long way apart 3 hrs for both and then just one out to 10 hrs I don't think they will ever mate. LOL Hope that is what you were asking??

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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kcarring
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Canada
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Posted - March 28 2012 :  17:29:53  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes thanks Doug. I think the halogens should ok, I dont have any normal incandescents. I think they only blow up if u go the other way, like take a 12V halogen and run 120V through it LOL.

This second battery just seems to sit at 7.4V after about 20 hrs runtime, though the input went up to about 1100 mA so she's taking the full capacity (I think) of the circuit, but not climbing to full boil. Which seems to be what happens to me in most cases when I try to desulphate, so I guess I'll shut it down, load it down, and then cycle again. Maybe it's not even sulphated, who knows! I've never seen true cold boil like you demonstrate, or "brown sludge" - so I dunno. Not there yet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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49er
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USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 28 2012 :  17:41:24  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

Yes they are very badly sulfated and you can only get it burned off with discharging first and then charge one right after the other

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
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kcarring
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Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 28 2012 :  22:20:14  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting. The better of the two sat at 7.4 for many hours so I called it quits and immediately attached a 50 watt halogen (12V) which probably isn't enough, as it only draws 3.4A initially and now about 3.2 It immediately dropped to 6.8, slowly went down and leveled out at 6.2 now it's on a plateau of sorts. So looks like this one can at least do work. Where do you like to see a 6V plateau? 6.2 seems -reasonable- to me, I mean double that would be 12.4 and be sort of typical for a 12v, I'm thinking. In theory if it was in real good shape it should easily be able to do that load for 24 hours. 220 A/h / 3A = 73

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on March 28 2012 22:22:39
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49er
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USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 29 2012 :  10:33:30  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

On my 6v I take them to 12.0v or 6.0v each but that doesn't happen very often. but in 12v mode they should be run to 12.0 and to 11.8 if you want to clean the sulfation better and charge to 16.2. I figure a pair of 6v (12v) should run a 5 amp load head light for 22 hrs or 1320 minutes to be 50% to 12.0 volts at that point I would want both batteries with in .05 volts of each other under the load at that time. Being you don't run a light for that long it is hard to get an accurate reading. Also you have the temp to deal with, a battery is at 100% of possibility at 80F and goes down very fast to -0- % at 32F very big.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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kcarring
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Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 29 2012 :  13:27:46  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for all the assistance Doug!

When you say:
"On my 6v I take them to 12.0v or 6.0v each but that doesn't happen very often."

Do you mean that during normal use, you run them down to that point over the duration of their cycle, or do you mean that you load them, to that point during desulphation load testing... I'm thinking the former, and not the latter...

"I figure a pair of 6v (12v) should run a 5 amp load head light for 22 hrs or 1320 minutes to be 50% to 12.0 volts at that point I would want both batteries with in .05 volts of each other under the load at that time. "

So in this statement, are you talking about a pair of 6 volts that has already been through cycling, and now they are connected in series and being typically "tested" for their readiness for daily use? i.e. you've done some desulphating and now you want to see if they can discharge under a 60 watt load, dropping no further than to 12.0 volts, over a 22 hour run?

"Also you have the temp to deal with, a battery is at 100% of possibility at 80F and goes down very fast to -0- % at 32F very big."

so here, you are saying all of the above figures are assuming a nice slightly above room temperature (80F) - while if they were trying operate at freezing temps, you can pretty much expect a 0% performance?


After having loaded the 6V (immediately after taking it to 7.45 volts and holding there for several hours) with a 3.4A load (a 50 watt halogen 12V bulb put on about 3:30pm yesterday), like I said before she went down to 6.8 immediately, (pretty much) then slowly declined to 6.19. Held that for many hours. Then I ran it all night long, when I checked it at 5:00AM this morning she was 6.11V. I had to disconnect it (for other reasons) When I returned at 8:30 the battery had restored to 6.3V. I reconnected the load and now, at 10:00AM it is still running at 6.11V, the same as it was at 5:00AM.

Given that it is a single 6V, running a 3.2-3.4A load, and not a pair in series running 5A, and the battery is 220A/h, the way I see it, it has managed to provide (so far) about 17 hrs (17 x 3 = 51 amp hours).

Granted everything is big different that your load testing.. but.. if I'm not mistaken, it's looking pretty reasonable. I think I will continue to run it to 5.8/5.9 a point I expect it shall recover to over 6V standing, basically... or for 24 hrs total, whichever comes first. Then throw it back on the pulse charger immediately, see if it will cold boil at 7.5-8V, but maybe not exceed more than a 24-30 hr charge.

I'm thinking the battery is really not all that "bad off", period.. but maybe I'm looking at this wrong. It's a bit confusing bouncing back and forth between 6 volt talk, and 12 volt talk...

Thanks



~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on March 29 2012 13:29:17
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49er
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USA
4426 Posts

Posted - March 29 2012 :  14:30:31  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

1-Yes the latter as long as there not in service(every day use).
2-yes at 80F if they reach 22 hrs with 5 amps I will put them in a bank.
3-At -0-F the internal battery will heat up to some extent and give you some power. This is way you in cold temps you turn on the head lights for 5 min to start your car it warms up the battery.
4-Yes when you bounce between 6 and 12 it get a little twisted but what works for 6 will just double for 12 and vise versa .
5-Cold boiling on most of my batteries will start at above 6.75 and should see good bubbles at 7.25 and if you don't then take that battery down on next discharge .1 volt more than last discharge to max low of 5.75 to 5.70. If you do that watch very carefully for bubbles on next charge. When all cells bubble equally that is the best that battery will get for recovering and if it doesn't work well then use it for a battery for experimenting with a charger on it and it will be your buffer or your paper weight.LOL
6. Your battery sounds sound but charge it and let set for a week and see if it holds the voltage. a lot of batteries will go down and down as the charge get longer from the charge time.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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kcarring
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Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - March 31 2012 :  21:08:24  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The best of the two 6V's performed pretty good. Ran about 30 hrs with a 3A load on it. It was still slightly above 6V when finished (loaded). It recovered nicely as unloaded to maybe 6.25V and went back on the charger. Ran the charger for two full days I guess, and it was sitting at about 6.8 almost, expecting it to start ramping up to 7.5 like before, when...

I noticed the other battery... the bulb came on...

I wasn't really sure what to do with it, earlier, so I had put it on a load. Normally, that same load, used on the other battery would pull 3A. On the lousy battery (which typically read 4.32V) it would pull maybe 700 mA, but not illuminate the bulb. So I had just left it there for a few hours...

The bulb came on, the "running voltage" jumped to like 5.75V or something, and it was drawing about 2A to light the bulb. Sometimes, the bulb would just go off. Off, then on.

So I thought, hmm .. I decided to interrupt the first batteries charge, and throw the charger on the bad battery. It started accepting a charge nicely, frequency lowered, and I read 6.4V charging. But then, just like the bulb had dimmed, the frequency jumped up to inaudible and battery voltage (charging) read between 8 and 9 volts again.

So something is going on, and I'm not sure what to speculate :) Going to to check it and see if it goes up and down, or if it remains very resistive. Not sure if I should "load it some more", or "charge it some more".

Interesting.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on March 31 2012 21:10:55
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49er
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USA
4426 Posts

Posted - April 01 2012 :  09:56:34  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

Like I said you do it one right after another. What you have is a shorted cell from sulfation and that is why your getting high voltage sometimes and low voltage other times. The one right after another D&C will either burn it off or finish it,either way your only out the energy it took to learn the battery was junk to start with and don't quit until you don't want to play any more or see just how far you can push it and see if it will ever come back. It is something you have to experience to know the how,what,why and should I keep trying. LOL Then when that is done you can do the messy dump and spray it out job and then refill to try again. LOL but that is the last resort some things are dead and like a good doctor you put a time stamp on the death certificate. We can send flowers LOL

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - April 01 2012 :  18:40:35  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL yes, this is a very interesting learning experience. The dead boy is coming back! Amazingly. Today she ran a load with no intermissions. I took it, probably, too far down by accident.. however, the good thing, was, that, when I immediately hooked up the TS SSG, she started accepting a more realistic charge, was reading in the 6's under charge, and the frequency much lower. And so far has not jumped up into the 8's or 9's. Seems we've breached the ice bridge captain LOL maybe anyway.
The other one, the better one, she's also improving... handling loads without so much of an immediate plunge... maintaining the load at 6.28 volts for her plateau instead of 6.19.

So it appears the aluminum TS SSG is definitely doing SOMETHING that we're looking for.

I got the old SSG going on another 12V too.

I now am beginning to see why you have many chargers.

I can also see myself building another, somewhere in the 12-24 T range.

Plenty of 6V's out there, I have a couple of golf courses willing to part with decommissioned bats.

Thanks again doug, this has been fun. This is in my mind is a very valuable school for solar guys!!! Even if all you did was take better care of what you bought... and foresaked the scrounging batteries, it'd still be worthwhile knowledge.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on April 01 2012 18:42:42
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - April 01 2012 :  19:31:38  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

This has been fun on my side also. It is something that you can ask but until you have the experience your self you just can't understand all the different ways and systems that you can run into. I have said all this somewhere else before but it falls on def ears.LOL until you get one Oh well you now know all that I know so from here we learn together.. Good luck with a 12 or 20T and still haven't seen where to but the alum wire??

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - April 01 2012 :  20:18:32  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Doug, you are totally correct. Believe it or not I have been stumbling at desulphation for almost a year now. And only in the last week have I really observed certain things. It would appear that in this case, I had to take it down... real low... before I could take it up... which you know, intuitively wouldn't be what you'd think you'd have to do. Now on the other one, that wasn't the case at all. So maybe I would have killed it, maybe it might survive, seems like it's surviving - no more "intermittency", bulk charging at now about 6.7V (connected) and accepting over an amp. But if I had killed it completely, not having read your experiences, I may never have ever tried that approach again... so it does take some learning and trying, maybe your gonna kill some... in the past I could recondition, bet never "revive from the dead". It most likely was a battery that some guy looked at, after trying to charge it conventionally and said "4.32V after charging all day, hmm... I give up". Or, even more likely, his charger said "fully charged" when hooked up, if it was automatic. It just wasn't accepting nor delivering any current (at first) - under 100 mA. haha

The aluminum wire...

I see he has increased his shipping rates... but... nonetheless it's still pretty reasonable. The coating is rated to 135C/275F - and you will notice right away it does seem a little "flaky" indeed as compared to the typical copper stuff, but, that said... 275F is far far hotter than my coil ever sees. So far it seems cooler than the room it's sitting in! I currently have 36 ohms, i think, on each transistor, and 50 in the lead resistor. I'll have to pull out the scope and see what sort of freq.'s I am running at. None of my meters do Hz. So I don't know. I do know, that, I can get it sounding like my SSG's sounds... running very cool, when the copper SSG is an easy bake oven LOL On a good battery, that will take it, typically close to 1A in at 24 volts, and 2A out at 12V.

Like I said, my roll was a bit short. He said he'd make it up on the next one. I'm going to place an order for his bigger roll, its 7500 ft, but this is the roll, I bought:

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7500 ft:
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He's got other cool stuff too, his store:
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I still, do not, quite understand why the need for so many transistors as opposed to paralleling at least a couple of strands per T? hmm One definite consideration with the aluminum wire is all of the mechanical connections and the potential involved cost of that... but... I think some creativity can help. So far I am pretty happy with using these terminal block crazy glued on their side, a hole drilled out in the lexan to push the wire up through... I think I'll do just that for the 2n3055, 2 each - but that does add expense a lot of time. On the flip side if you ever do blow a transistor they are easily swapped out. About the best deal I found on the terminal strips was:
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so that'd allow you connections for 6T @ $1.30 / 42T would cost $10.
I'm sure there is an even cheaper way to go about it... someone will think of it, I'm sure.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on April 01 2012 20:42:41
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49er
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USA
4426 Posts

Posted - April 01 2012 :  21:03:31  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

That is a good price for 7500 ft. LOL that would make a 75T LOL really big power Thanks I have seen that on Ebay and looked right over it. Thanks

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - April 01 2012 :  22:15:35  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's my thought too. I want to do at least a 20-40T anyway, I got about 42 transistors right now. I don't have enough neons. They are bit pricey. There is another circuit that I have been playing with that I think is going to be beneficial in the initial stage of cracking dendrite shorts. Played with the initial proto of that today. It's pretty interesting. It fills a ferrite inductor and creates a very high amperage pulse, but it's duration is in the very low microseconds. With it goes the spike too, and HV. So I'll post when I have something to show. I haven't got my inductance right yet, the goal is pulses of 20-200A for like 10uS. In this way the battery is not heated.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - April 02 2012 :  01:18:55  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That damn battery is fooling me, she went a LONG time charging nicely, then later I came out, oscillator had stopped, sitting there reading the original 4.32V as I found it. So I load it with a bulb, and you can see the bulb comes on dim... and then boom it comes on bright, and u got your 6V back so to speak. So then I put the charger on... 10V. So, she took a charge, but there is one cell that comes on, goes off, comes on... intermittently.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - April 02 2012 :  11:10:51  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

Many many D&C may get rid of the problem but that is up to you. If you take it down to many times you WILL ruin it so charge and just use the light and then use the light again don't worry about voltage. Use at night and charge in daylight but not at over one amp, this is new theory of mine and like always I hate to throw any thing away mine is a 18AH SLA.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - April 02 2012 :  22:10:02  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@49 'er Given my limited ability to to time the cycles properly, I have put the worst off to the side for now, and focused more on those that seem to be improving. While I was little pre-emptive in thinking that I had fully revived the worst one, I think I am now definitely starting to see what you illustrated in having a battery rise and stay at a better potential, and maintain it's operational "plateau" at a higher potential. The best of the 6v's (which could handle a load right from the dump even) actually maintained 6.34V AFTER being charged, i.e. it rested all day, and stayed at 6.34V. Under load, it no longer did the huge plunge to 6.19... it hasn't plateau'd yet... and, another 12V I have managed to handle a 1.6A load for about 12 hours without dipping into the 11's till the very end, whereas when it first started it would do so almost immediately.

So I think I'm getting somewhere.

At some point I will develop a routine, a better start finish routine - but it is kind of tough, so many other things to do in a day, trying to babysit batteries.

What I really need is some circuits that automatically shut off loads, and I am researching that. Ideally, it'd all be in the charger/revivor. Take it to a voltage, shut off, start charging, shut off, put the load on... then it can happen at any time of the night or day, whether I'm available or not. Some "overcharging" seems less harmful than dragging a battery down way too far.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on April 02 2012 22:12:12
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - April 03 2012 :  13:42:03  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

If you just put it on a timer and a relay and after the first 2 D&C
you can guess the time it takes and put it just on time for discharge and finish when your there. This is what I do and it works very well because I use the light.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - April 03 2012 :  14:41:41  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good idea! Do you have a DC-based timer, then? Or is it an AC timer that controls a relay, that ultimately controls the DC load-testing flow?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - April 03 2012 :  15:49:33  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

AC timer to a ac relay one NO/ NC and just use what you like..

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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