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49er
Administrator


USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 06 2012 :  08:46:21  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This thread is for ALL battery questions and ALL battery information you should ever need.

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USA
Mountain View


49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 06 2012 :  08:48:40  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 06 2012 :  08:50:43  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 06 2012 :  08:53:31  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Battery Bible

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 06 2012 :  08:59:55  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This a Battery CCA to AH and C20 and C25 charge and discharge
The C25 is = to 80% which is good for a week battery.

AH------C20AMPS---Watts---------CCA-----C25-80% DISCHARGE RATE
1--------0.05--------0.6------------7--------0.032
1.2------0.06--------0.72-----------8.4------0.0384
2--------0 0.1-------1.2------------14-------0.064
3--------0.15--------1.8------------21-------0.096
4--------0.2---------2.4------------28-------0.128
4.5------.225--------2.7------------31.5-----0.144
7--------0.35--------4.2------------49-------0.224
9--------0.45--------5.4------------63-------0.288
10-------0.5---------6--------------70-------0.32
18-------0.9---------10.8-----------126------0.576
20-------1-----------12-------------140------0.64
34-------1.7---------20.4-----------238------1.088
43-------2.15--------25.8-----------301------1.376
55-------2.75--------33-------------385------1.76
71-------3.55--------42.6-----------497------2.272
78.6-----3.93--------47.16----------550.2----2.5152
84.4-----4.22--------50.64----------590.8----2.7008
89.3-----4.465-------53.58----------625.1----2.8576
100------5-----------60-------------700------3.2
110------5.5---------66-------------770------3.52
115------5.75--------69-------------805------3.68
125------6.25--------75-------------875------4
225------11.25-------135------------1575-----7.2=T105
375------18.75-------225------------2625-----12 =L16
450------22.5--------270------------3150-----14.4
500------25----------300------------3500-----16
2025----101.25------1215-----------14175----64.8=BIG BANK


Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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Edited by - 49er on January 06 2012 11:07:18
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iaec
Forum Admin



1033 Posts

Posted - January 06 2012 :  09:06:43  Show Profile Send iaec a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Doug, thanks for this post here on batteries.
Its been Stickified :))

TimberJack

***Possibilities Within The Impossible***

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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - January 06 2012 :  09:20:00  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi 49er-see you got it up and running-cool
I have a question--most of everything about batterys and pulse systems seems to be lead acid.
What about useing some other types like
1-Nickel metal hydride (NiMH)
2-alkaline manganese
3-NiCad
4-Lithium ion.
I was useing Lithium ion batterys on my window motor ,and you seen the results i was getting from that.
Im just wondering if maybe lead acid isnt the best battery to use?-whats your thoughts on this?

Remember-when you make a mistake you have just learned how not to do it.This only brings you one step closser to success.The only way to fail is to never try>>>>TinMan<<<<
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 06 2012 :  10:45:49  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Tinman

My experiences with all except lithium will be coming in the near future. lithium is good battery but very expensive in big amounts to supply a house and to my understanding don't have a long life. Your computer will tell you that, 2 to 3 years and most of us have to change them. NiMH and NiCD I have 15 yrs of RC car racing with them and have charged them with Bedini. Alkaline can be charged with very small bedini style chargers and I am plaining a video for them. The Alum battery is a another project I want to get into as always time is your worst enemy but it will come. For the best batteries for now the Edison battery will last 75 yrs so $ for $ it is the best bang for the Buck.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - January 06 2012 :  11:14:41  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi 49er-im of to look at these edison batterys ,as i have never heard of them.

Remember-when you make a mistake you have just learned how not to do it.This only brings you one step closser to success.The only way to fail is to never try>>>>TinMan<<<<>>Were's the vidio??<<<
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 06 2012 :  15:36:03  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM

Here is a link for Edison battery
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Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - January 06 2012 :  17:44:44  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi 49er-thanks for the link,i see they dont like holding charge much and dont like a DC recharge either.

Remember-when you make a mistake you have just learned how not to do it.This only brings you one step closser to success.The only way to fail is to never try>>>>TinMan<<<<>>Were's the vidio??<<<
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 06 2012 :  19:25:20  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi TM

What they do though is give there all to the end and you can't hurt them just recharge. There great for a solar setup and because you can't hurt them its charge/discharge at the same time IMHO

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - January 07 2012 :  00:49:29  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK 49er, You got me interested and I looked em over and there quite cool and apparently easy to build test versions .. I found this video on youtube and if the nickel doesn't cost too much it would be good to make a few to play with .. Ya'll may have seen this already but, I thought it was interesting.... I haven't found out if it will work with stainless instead of iron yet but, I'm looking.

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==================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...

Edited by - Kudzu on January 07 2012 01:05:14
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 07 2012 :  08:24:43  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi K

That was a great find, I learned a lot more that I knew

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - January 07 2012 :  09:18:40  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey 49er, I found a reference to stainless and nickel and while charging collecting the hydrogen for other thing's ... I was thinking if a dry cell HHO generator was made and insulated with nickel and stainless plates you could have a generator and a battery in one very long lasting battery... I've seen people making awesome cutting torches with HHO generators / Hot water heaters and home heating use would also be an great byproduct ... Defiantly worth looking into !
Here's a video that I think is useful

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==================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...

Edited by - Kudzu on January 07 2012 09:26:25
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 07 2012 :  11:07:26  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi K

I think it takes more juice than it makes. If I need it though that is a good site for it.


Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - January 07 2012 :  11:15:14  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey 49er, I was just saying if a battery design can be made that the HHO is collected while charging .. It would be an awesome byproduct for other thing's .. Take you for instance when your charging during the day you would have the HHO torch available for free .. That was my line of thought with what I was saying earlier..

==================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 07 2012 :  13:18:01  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi K

Gotcha

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - January 20 2012 :  01:34:42  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kudzu

Hey 49er, I was just saying if a battery design can be made that the HHO is collected while charging .. It would be an awesome byproduct for other thing's .. Take you for instance when your charging during the day you would have the HHO torch available for free .. That was my line of thought with what I was saying earlier..
==================================================
I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...



Not sure if you noticed, or read this document by Walt Pile I posted.
I'm posting another in the PDF/books thread, right now.

Walt has observed large output from his electrolyser, after shut down, in the order of 10 amp output for many hours, if I am not screwing up what he wrote, I have to check again.

What I am not sure about, is, whether, when that capacity is drained, his output is effected, because... I know in my HHO setup, as shown on my youtube... you get a plating occur (not unlike a battery). To then turn around and strip that plating effect off, to draw energy, might in turn make your cell have less output, upon re-application of current, while trying to make hydrogen.

Now.. here's the thing... mine makes HHO, his is a separative cell. I have never actually observed similar "battery output" though I havent run it for 10 hours and THEN checked. Mine is outputing HHO with both neg and pos plates being 316L stainless. His, are nickel alloy. Probably the best for dual, is like you said, maybe? already? dissimilar metals. Perhaps nickel / SS. My hunch is that what you'd gain in electrical output, is what you'd lose in HHO generation, but hey, who knows. I will add that, when I VERY first fired my system, it wasn't like I saw 4 times or even double the output. It pretty much fired up and made HHO (before any real conditioning could have taken place).

So it is very interesting thought indeed. One would, of course, not really want to be doing it, if in fact it was constantly corroding your system.. however... what you are talking about really is a variant on the Edison cell, which was never really touted as failing for corrosion in the first place! I've used Edisons that were 40+ yrs. old.

Interesting idea to test tho!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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twally67
Average Member



USA
251 Posts

Posted - January 20 2012 :  02:59:10  Show Profile Send twally67 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i wonder if a plain lithium battery can take an ssg charge????????

sometimes meltdowns though kinda $$ make the best inspirations!!!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 20 2012 :  09:59:10  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi twally

I have herd that it can but at low charge rate, haven't tried it yet

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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twally67
Average Member



USA
251 Posts

Posted - January 20 2012 :  10:43:23  Show Profile Send twally67 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
im afraid they go boom real easy...lol

sometimes meltdowns though kinda $$ make the best inspirations!!!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - January 20 2012 :  11:42:11  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi twally

Other than my computer battery I don't have any to even try on and it sounds like I don't want to.. THANKS

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 12 2012 :  09:25:32  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With reading several discussions on charging 12v battery to 12v battery, 12v 'bench top source to 12v battery and understanding 'most' of it, I have a question.

I've 'stepped' up the voltage on my 'Bench top supply' to 16.9v now and running tests.

The batteries have had a steady climb (or gain)in the past running at 12.10v (bench top supply) but never have I seen voltage over 12.85v while charging.

Now with voltage upped, I broke through the 14v mark!

Excited to reach this point!
Concerned I've reached this point..

I'm I helping or hurting the re-conditioning process of the battery by 'upping' the voltage?




Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 12 2012 :  10:06:20  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

It is a good thing for the battery. It need to be up to 16.2v on a good conditioned battery but it has to get there with a little help. Which is D&C that is what conditions a battery. Back to the supply is the voltage ac or dc going into the SSG, If it is ac I am not sure if you will have a Frequency problem with the SSG circuit because the circuit is matched to coil and input battery which is DC. If it is DC from your supply your good Also the 16v is under a load or no load voltage?? But it doesn't make a difference because you tune it for charging of the C20 of the charge battery. IMHO the SSG standard doesn't work well below 12.2 volts, I find the charge drops off a lot. Hope that is clear, only 1 cup of coffee so far I am like SD3T can't function very well until after the third. LOL

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er

Edited by - 49er on February 12 2012 10:08:51
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 12 2012 :  11:11:19  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you 49er.
Yes, this does help!

We've talked about this before, but please let me just confirm my understanding.

Working with my 205ah battery, the C20 rate would be 10.25amps.
Making my hourly draw 512ma for a 20 hour period (not reducing the battery below 10.5v during this period).

I've been drawing about 250ma hrly, only because my charge rate is only 420ma (trying to insure I can replace what I use in a given amount of time and exceed a bit).



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 12 2012 :  11:57:04  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

NO, The 10.25 amps is an hour and not 512ma per hr. That is also the amount that you can put back in. If you can't charge it in 20 hrs then you know that either you can't produce the amps needed to complete in the C20 time or your battery is badly sulfated. Your 512 ma is a C400 rate meaning you can drain the battery for 400 hrs at 512 ma so that is 16.6 days 24/7 LOL that is how long you could leave you tail light on for a very very long time.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 12 2012 :  12:17:15  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was afraid you were going to say that...

No, I do not have the capability of charging anywhere near 10amps.
And yes, It's sulfated, but I don't believe badly (I can hold 12.5 plus and slowly climbing).

If I continue, as I'm doing, it will just take longer to re-condition?

I am seeing gain in the process and the 60w solar panel gets the battery higher than before I started all this.

Ive learned patience in my years, but please tell me I'm not wasting my time on 205ah's...

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 12 2012 :  12:35:53  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Absolutely not, You are not wasting any time, it will get stronger every time it is used. Now lest set out a game plain Leave it on charge for ever LOL until it peaks. That means the battery starts to bock down 1 or 2 hundreds of a volt. Usually takes an hour it will set at one voltage and not move and then it will drop 1 or 2 and at that point it is peaked. Then let it rest 10 hrs. Next lets discharge to 11.8 ONLY and record the time. You will do it the same way every time. I use a head light that is 5 amps that is about C40 rate but you want to build up to a C20 rate may be. Just for a reference point My T 105's will go 400+ minutes and that is not any where near what they should but at that point I figure I can start using the energy in the battery for the house for something besides light. and from that point 12.0 volts should be the low discharge point that you take the battery. In charging and discharging the lower 11.8 and 16.2 is what I try for until I get 400 minutes on the discharge. What your doing with the deep discharge is burning off the crystals and then charge to 16.2 will do the same on the top and that is the way you get more capacity.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 12 2012 :  13:43:55  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kinda scared me with the "Absolutely not", till I read the "not wasting your time" part.

What you're talking about it reaching peak, 'bocking', then receding is exactly what I see and 'thought' what you say (reached peak) was happening.

Whoa! I'm getting closer!!

I will add the time factor to my chart to dis-charge to 11.8v (never thought of this, probably why I ask you).

I will probably be more consistent on a 24hr rest, just the way my schedule works.
Hopefully consistency vs. the time factor is more important.
If not, I'll have to figure the timing out.

Time to 'update' my chart.

Thanx Doug!

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 12 2012 :  16:23:23  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

The time resting can be 10 hrs to any thing just should not be less than 10. You will here us talking about 1 hr rest but we are trying to do something else with the battery.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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jneo
Junior Member



Australia
96 Posts

Posted - February 13 2012 :  00:52:36  Show Profile Send jneo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi all can you charge a fully sealed gel type battery? Is there any danger of it exploding
Regards jneo
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 13 2012 :  08:47:56  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi jneo

Yes, a gel battery will not charge as high as a flooded lead acid.
When they have reached it end of there life they won't charge any more and you can't add water IMHO Hope this helps

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 14 2012 :  00:01:17  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@49er

When you are desulphating a larger battery; say a truck battery, or RV battery, do you take the voltage right up to 15v or as close to, as possible, and cold boil the battery, before discharging / cycling - no matter what (one way or another)? I have a battery that after 3 cycles has shown no progress, but I have only been taking it up to 14. I suppose if I left it 4 days or something it might go higher... but the situation (as it arose) has always been that, it is sitting at around 13.99 - 14.01 late in the evening and I've been scared to let it keep going all night... When I return to the battery in the morning it is back to 12.4. During load cycles it works alright, but it holds almost all of its load capacity at under 12V, and the majority of the power curve is around 11.5-11.6V, which is low. I've been running a 12V 20 watt lamp as a load, so about 1.5A or so, and this is a 27 series 80 A/H+ RV deep cycle. I am tempted to run it at 18 or 24V, instead of 14 (input) volts in order to "get it up" to a hard cold boil. I've had it starting to percolate but the electrolyte solution remains clear, and the brown flakes never dissolve, no "muddy" water or "hard boil".

Thanks

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 14 2012 :  08:38:10  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

Let me ask a couple of questions. how much juice is going in? how long does it take to charge and last exactly how many ahs is it.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 14 2012 :  16:12:11  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@49er

I don't have the exact answers to your questions... I'm sorry. I remember you posted "I don't use ammeters, they lie, so why use them?" - so I didn't really bother with hooking up an ammeter - perhaps I will this next cycle through.

As for the battery, it appears to be a rebranded one, a bit hard to find any amp hour information on it. It is shown on this page, the 27DC. 650 CCA / 750 CA / 180 min reserve. No amp hour stats.
You must be logged in to see this link. I would estimate from seeing other RV batteries that it is likely 80 A/H out of the box at best. I think the "Deep Cycle" batteries that show no amp hour ratings, and rather CCA's, are really, at best a pseudo deep cycle - really a "marine battery" a deep cycle / starter... so on that premise, I think 100 A/h's would be a bit too optimistic. It's year label cell was removed - new in 2006.

The SSG circuit itself when ran at the lowest HZ possible with 22 ohms on each base leg, and a single 68 ohm lead in resistor, draws about 1.5-1.7A. The one and only time I saw the neons go off (by accident) they were going HARD.. I quickly stopped it, they were glowing purple even, looking ready to pop. So there is some current going in, maybe more than 300 mA, I'd guess.

I ran it down until loaded, it showed less than 11.0 , so maybe 10.X, and it was quickly falling toward 9.X, so I stopped. That was many hours running a 20 watt incandescent drawing 1.5A, so it is showing minimum of a 20 A/h capacity, now, I'd say.

It holds voltage, while running, but its low. mid 11's.

Perhaps I just need to push it harder and longer up well into the 14's instead of giving up.

It does seem to charge in a reasonable amount of time, not so far off the discharge rate. Almost too fast to make sense, but... I haven't gotten scientific about it, so I can't justly make that statement...I apologize... many other things on the go... I would estimate at worst I run it on the 20 watt load for 10 hours and I charge it for 12-16 max, to recover. At 1.5A input. Once above 14.0V, if I unhook charge, it slowly (over 8 hours) resolves back down to its 12.4V - which was the max conventional charging could take it, too.

It's just that it always seems to be 10 pm when it hits 14.0 -- and I am hesitant to then run it 8 hrs, like that, while I sleep.

Thanks.
Kyle




~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on February 14 2012 16:22:04
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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 14 2012 :  16:56:56  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi kc

First don't run the battery below 10.5 v next discharge it at 5 amps that is what you have to do to clean the crystals off the rest for 10 hrs and charge until it hits 15;2 v or it sets at one spot for two hrs or backs up .01 volts. 14 volts is not charged and may take a lot longer to hit 15.2 and if it goes over don't worry about that either I charge mine to 16.2 before I consider it charged well. but for you 15.2 will work/ I will read your response over on EF

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 14 2012 :  17:27:33  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you Sir, I will try that :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 14 2012 :  17:34:43  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 49er

Hi kc

First don't run the battery below 10.5 v next discharge it at 5 amps that is what you have to do to clean the crystals off the rest for 10 hrs and charge until it hits 15;2 v or it sets at one spot for two hrs or backs up .01 volts. 14 volts is not charged and may take a lot longer to hit 15.2 and if it goes over don't worry about that either I charge mine to 16.2 before I consider it charged well. but for you 15.2 will work/ I will read your response over on EF

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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EF???
I'm following this...
I wish to stay with you guys.


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 14 2012 :  19:43:47  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

kc likes to go over with the info from here to the EF

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - February 26 2012 :  19:57:23  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
^gel batteries can be rejuvenated quite effectively using high voltage.

i wanted to add that i find crappy NiCD's restore fairly well using cap pulsing as opposed to regular hv charging. last week alone i managed to bring back some AA's, and old drill batts using a cap pulsing setup when the regular hv output was not doing the trick. figured this is worth mentioning.

this is why i recommend building a circuit that can be set to charge normally, charge with very high voltage through a step up transformer, and charge using cap pulsing.
odds are if u have a bad battery, one of those methods will bring it back to life.

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  15:48:52  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Magneticitist

^gel batteries can be rejuvenated quite effectively using high voltage.

i wanted to add that i find crappy NiCD's restore fairly well using cap pulsing as opposed to regular hv charging. last week alone i managed to bring back some AA's, and old drill batts using a cap pulsing setup when the regular hv output was not doing the trick. figured this is worth mentioning.

this is why i recommend building a circuit that can be set to charge normally, charge with very high voltage through a step up transformer, and charge using cap pulsing.
odds are if u have a bad battery, one of those methods will bring it back to life.

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]



Could I talk you into a thread dedicated to the circuit with the 'How's & Why's'?
I'm quite interested in reading and learning from it!



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  16:52:09  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Have you read the BATTERY BIBLE yet? expound on what you want for a thread.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  18:15:42  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 49er

Hi ODR

Have you read the BATTERY BIBLE yet? expound on what you want for a thread.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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SKYPE bxx49er



The circuit
Use the Hv vs the Pulse
Is there a switch between these to change over within the circuit
Is it a change over to convert
How complex is this
Is this something I could work with

I was asking kindly if a thread could happen to explain what Mag is doing and learn from his the experience, as I assumed others would do.

His thoughts intrigued me and how he was going about it...

Sorry I asked..




Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  19:16:16  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Mag does his thing and I do mine. I charge big batteries and little ones, what mag charges and with is his idea of what he likes. I like SS with the TS set up and SSG set up and I tried the pulse and it is to slow. IMHO

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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SKYPE bxx49er
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - February 27 2012 :  21:05:20  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:


I was asking kindly if a thread could happen to explain what Mag is doing and learn from his the experience, as I assumed others would do.




With all due respect to both Mag and 49'er (I've tried both methods, they both are good), they are similar in the sense that they both push a lot of current. When you use the air core SSG at low frequencies, it pushed a lot of current. Both the transformer JT charger and the air core push current. I got a fair bit of heat on my transistor, using the JT transformer setup. All commercially available pulse based desulphators, push current. The beauty, as I see it, of the solid state coils, is you have a choice. Many like to run it at a bit higher frquency around 800 Hz, where you are pushing less current, and it seems a bit more efficient. With my 2T SS SSG, I can push up to an amp into the battery - but at that point - my coil is starting to heat up a fair bit. I like the idea (I think) of running many circuits like 49'er shows in his bigger units, and run it slightly higher at around 800Hz. As for the spikes, there is a lot of argument as to whether they are really seen by the battery, or not, my scope shows them right at the charging battery poles, but by that time, they are only a few volts above bat voltage. If you probe right at the end of the diodes, they go up to 32V. See DadHav's recent video of spikes well defined during operation, using the inclusion of a steel wire in the mix. I don't claim to have the answers, but, I do believe the battery sees them.


*add: When I say I tried Mag's JT, it pushed a lot of current, my HV experiment was actually a tip that Mag gave me to use the XEE2vids circuit using a centre tap transformer, step up, and it too did a good job.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on February 27 2012 22:47:39
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  00:27:17  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well the thing is i really dont recommend cap pulsing in general because i dont find it to charge very well. i never use a cap pulser to charge batteries anymore, i just mainly use a solid state circuit. i dont have any huge batteries so i can get away with using a bedini style circuit to oscillate a larger coil, which lately for me has been a MWO primary.
i do know that with all the different batteries i've tried charging, the ones that are considered fairly healthy get charged with a high frequency in SS.

but when it comes to trying to fix crapped out batteries the pulse has helped as well as higher voltage. for example i was trying to fix some AA nicd's in an old electric shaver the other day and charging them on my MWO coil was not doing anything, they would sit at under half a volt and seemed like they didn't want to rise at all. when i put them on the pulser it seemed like after a short while they suddenly wanted to rest above 1.2v, and after that were able to charge fine again on the MWO coil. same thing can be said for other lead acids batts i've tried restoring.

i always try all 3 methods with a bad battery and if one of them doesn't work i just consider it a lost cause. if regular charging doesn't do it, then the bedini style pulsing is needed. if that doesn't do it i try cranking up the current or try higher voltage, if THAT doesn't work them some nice cap pulsing at around 70v a pop seems to work out. thats pretty much why i just put all 3 modes on a board through a rotary switch cause it seems like it can tackle what is possibly tackle-able lol.

my next beefier preferred SS charger would probably be 2 separate bedini circuits with their coils facing eachother, and i'd try to push at least a couple amps through it.

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 28 2012 :  16:27:40  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@KC
Thank you for the input and your experience. I'm pushing up to 500ma on my 2T SS, but probably running smaller wire than you (23g). I'm still balancing out my charge/dis-charge between to alike batteries (230cca's) and finding that 125ma in is all it will do for now (for any length of time).

I do have some new 2n3055's coming and with the trial & error period may have hurt the ones on board now. Heck, I may have hurt the whole circuit, but I have enough around here here to re-build and start from fresh.

@MAG
Thank you for your response!
It's interesting how your using all 3 and working back to the simplest way of completing the task at hand, re-covering and charging the battery.

Start with the simplest and work your way up till something (or nothing & throw it away) happens.
Seems that was what Dad always said...

I love the new SS unit I'm working on, but always felt there is a need for the Pulse Unit I have (thanks to Poppy).

You just confirmed this.

Now I need to research and learn about this 'cap pulsing'...

May just have something new to add to the arsenal.


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 29 2012 :  09:05:47  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Don't get Poppy's voltage doubler confused with a cap pulser they are two different uses of two different beasts

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 29 2012 :  16:05:22  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 49er

Hi ODR

Don't get Poppy's voltage doubler confused with a cap pulser they are two different uses of two different beasts

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er



Understood.

At the moment I have no need for the Cap Pulser because my batteries react from either the Sampu or the new SS unit.
Really just wish to learn about it cause, who knows, I may need it in the future.

What I am seeing is the batteries react differently between running a standard SSG (or maybe just mine) vs the SS unit.

The Sampu just keeps on going where the SS unit seems to be rather finicky about ma's.

I realize my SS unit is only a 2T 23g unit and will not do what the Sampu will (10T, 8 mag, 4 coil).

My inclination is the resistance from the battery receiving 'additional' voltage.
What I mean is, the battery has reached it's point of charging and won't take more (normally would start to recede).

The Sampu would just keep trucking and push.
Where the SS unit says 'nope we're done' and shuts down.
Kinda cool in a way, it's like an 'auto shut-off'.

Yes, I can tune the SS to push a few more hundredths, but that's all.. It's done charging.

What I believe I've learned through these 1/2 dozen C&D cycles is the battery resistance will effect the circuit's resistance.







Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4426 Posts

Posted - February 29 2012 :  18:56:22  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Two questions come to mind 1- keep on mind that you have to have a coil equal to the resistance of the battery so the small SS you need to look at it in that mind set it is small compared to the wheel. 2- what size battery are you charging with both?? My 23ga 13T will charge a set of T 105 cart batteries But it takes time. A 23ga coil is hard pressed to charge a battery bigger than 100AH in a 20 hr period. It is the wire size that makes all the difference in battery charging. I just built a cap pulser made a video of it and came to the conclusion it is not worth the parts and you can't push any power only volts and that won't charge a battery any faster than your SS right now. My cap pulser was only able to use a 125 to 150 MA and after that the SCR would lock up and not switch, so have fun

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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