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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member


USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 18 2017 :  16:18:23  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With the exploration that Jerry is doing I decided to step where I've never gone before. Dissect a L/A battery.

Now most all of us understand the composition of the battery and how it works, yet I've never actually opened one till today.

The battery is my 6v 4ah, seemed like a good one to experiment with.

It was as I expected, 3 cells connected in series.
Well, should have been, but the connectors corroded (2 out of 3 anyway)
1 of the cells came out easily and looks fine.
The second looks good from the top, but stubborn to move.
That third is brown, rusty looking and won't budge at all.

Since I don't have any Ammonium Chloride (S/A that Jerry's using) I thought I'd do an Epsom bath (Magnesium sulfate) to see if I can free the remaining cells.

My assumption is no issue with the bath until voltage is added.
Question is, will it dissolve the sulfate holding it (assuming again the is the issue) and I can remove the remaining cells without damage.

Wishing right now I had some Sal ammoniac..

Thoughts please.









Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 19 2017 :  07:07:23  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Two things surprised me;

First was how tight the cells are in each compartment. My assumption was, if fluid is needed for them to 'float(?)' in, how can they if this tight.

Is this normal?

Second the fluid (Epson salt mix) I poured on top, hasn't flowed into the compartment (no space to allow it).

My impression is, the cells have expanded and built up sulfate between the plates not allowing any fluid to flow into the compartment.



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4452 Posts

Posted - February 19 2017 :  09:13:55  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Just a simple lead acid battery? or a SLA?


Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 20 2017 :  08:03:08  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
SLA. Take it that's the difference?

It's one of those from a Surge protect/power backup for the computer.

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - February 20 2017 :  19:17:48  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR
The SLA type cell is a tightly packed unit in order to keep the electrolyte
( held in the glass matting ) against the active plate area
However from your description I would agree that sulphation build up
has caused the cell to expand
ron
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 21 2017 :  17:54:31  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what I understand, sulfate is white in color.
What is the brown I see?

To me it's corrosion, caused by?
I assume the build-up.

If correct, then once opened and brown is evident, much work to be done to revive.

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - February 22 2017 :  15:58:35  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR
The brown substance is lead oxide the positive plate material
It's certainly not corrosion

ron
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 22 2017 :  17:50:54  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, it's no longer on the plate...
That cell I pulled out, 2 plates barely has lead left on it..

I have an Epsom salt solution now that looks like deep rich ice tea!

The last cell I still haven't removed.. Have a feeling what that one is going to look like.




Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4452 Posts

Posted - February 22 2017 :  20:16:20  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

In my trogons the Sulfation comes in a crystal form when I first got them and the pulse SSG broke it up into maple syrup and come to think of that the crystals looked a lot like rock candy. Also the separators in some of them look like cardboard and brown in color

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 25 2017 :  13:43:17  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My absentee neighbor has a bank of 6V PV batteries which are completely shot. The cases are swelled on all sides, with blue green crystals growing out through cracks around the terminal posts. I would presume the crystals are sulfate, but why the color? The sulfate deposits on the plates I have are white.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 25 2017 :  16:46:03  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First question from us in the Nor'east: Did a squirrel climb in? LOL

I have never seen Blue Green Crystals!

Doug? RonO?





Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4452 Posts

Posted - February 25 2017 :  16:55:19  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Blue/Green copper

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 25 2017 :  20:43:51  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All righty then. Must have leached from the connecting cables.

Thanks.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 26 2017 :  14:55:47  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wish a could get a decent picture and will try again.

If indeed this brown is lead oxide then it probably shouldn't be 'everywhere'.

I just opened up my test LA Battery I've had around here for years to experiment with.
This one came out of my boat, so many years back.

This one (vs the SLA), has the room I expected around the plates, but the amount of iron oxide was huge!
The plates are insulated, by what I'd guess as an rubberized material. Best explained as a baggie over each plate.
Between each plate (or baggie shall I say) was the brown (iron oxide?) sludge. Maybe better stated as mud.

I'm starting to think it may be a good idea to give my 10yr old Batt's a bath with this S/A Jerry's talking about and clean them up a bit.

Depending on what you all say, I'm looking at draing them to see what the fluid looks like and if brown, give them a rinse.




Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4452 Posts

Posted - February 26 2017 :  15:03:05  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

I have seen my dad do that and its a 50/50 deal. He washed it out with a hose under 40 psi and got a lot of crap out of it. The problem with that is you can tear up your separator's so be aware of that.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 26 2017 :  17:22:59  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My issue at this point is.. What the heck is all the crap doing to my battery and How the heck did it get there?

Well, get there is probably non-use..
Yet all that crap?
If general use will develop over time...
How long before we give it a good rinse?

Be it sulfation accumulation or what I saw..
Knocking it off the plates just means it's elsewhere.. No?

Seems like a good rinse, at some point may be needed.. To keep them alive?

Would bleach, or what Jerry offered S/A hurt the separators?

If what's in there now doesn't...

Not thinking at all about pressurized, well not yet anyway...
What I'm seeing of break-up, not seeing a need.
Maybe low flow to expedite. Filtered. Hmm.. Have to think about this.





Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 26 2017 :  17:27:33  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
RonO, please, what's the issue with Ammonium Chloride being added to Sulfuric Acid with or without current?

I am seeing a reaction without current.


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4452 Posts

Posted - February 26 2017 :  18:44:14  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

May be the separator's is what you are seeing as mud. Like I have seen when I fill some of my trogon's they get very brown just filling with water.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - February 26 2017 :  19:25:27  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR
The brown sludge is most likely to be lead oxide ( plate cell material ) this is dislodged by both mechanical and chemical
means during the life of the battery It cannot be recovered during the normall charge cycle of the battery
If a lead acid battery is not fully charged it will sulphate up quicker than one which is allowed to "cold boil"
Ammonium chloride .... Jerry put forward the suggestion that it would dissolve any insoluble lead sulphate and form lead chloride which
soluble I added that bleach would futher react with the lead chloride to produce lead oxide ( hopefully on the existing plate surface )
As to the effect on the battery of either of the two processes I cannot honestly comment because I don't know
My best suggestion would be to follow Doug's advice and carefully wash out the battery prior to any other treatments

ron
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - February 27 2017 :  02:11:36  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR
I forgot to mention above what I have previously stated on Jerry 's thread
Ammonium Chloride will react without any current input
You should NOT pass any current through the Ammonium Chloride solution
as it will produce the toxic gas Chlorine

BTW Ammonium Chloride is very soluble in water and produces a perfectly
clear solution
If you get a cloudy "solution " it is due to impurities, either from the water or
from the Ammonium Chloride itself

ron
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 27 2017 :  04:36:30  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ron,

I'm not so sure about the lead chloride. What I'm showing on my thread is it's still lead sulfate after the water evaporates. (See my analogy to sugar water.) I think ammonium chloride is a solvent, rather than a reagent.

edit: And current does liberate chlorine gas.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.

Edited by - Jerry Volland on February 27 2017 04:42:31
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 27 2017 :  08:01:22  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I need to get some pictures going.

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 27 2017 :  17:32:30  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here we go.

First is the separator. This is what I called the 'baggie'. Some sort of vinyl/rubberized material to hold the plate.



That is what this plate was in:



Now this is where the 'sludge' came from. The other plate outside the separator (baggie). Barely touched it to get you this picture, Touch it again, well, sludge.



The debris you see is from me touching it to take the picture. This photo also shows the gap in the 'baggie' that the other plate was in.

Yes, this battery is dead, no recovery possible.
Yet those plates inside the separator are recoverable. Or so I see..

I'll keep the good plates, soak them in S/A and clean them.
I see building an LA in my future.
Separators still look good.
I have the parts and a case to work with.

Hmm..

Sorry it took so long to post pictures.




Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4452 Posts

Posted - February 28 2017 :  08:21:06  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Have fun but after go have a blood test for lead in your blood. That is a real possibility with what you are doing. NO LAUGHING MATTER. It won't kill you

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 28 2017 :  16:26:33  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you Doug.

I'm wearing gloves (latex, and have been) and a mask now (no mask before, but now yes).

Everything is touched by a tool, pliers and such.

Again, Thank you for the warning and concern of my well being!



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 28 2017 :  16:35:16  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now, with what I saw of all that Lead Oxide, it ate the plates.
My understanding is those are the positive plates.

The plates in the sleeves I assume are the negative plates and those are decently in tact.
Thought is to carefully remove those plates and see how many I can salvage for later experimenting. Possibly soak them in the S/A in they're sleeve first.

That brings me to the question.
My understanding is that the sulfating occurs on the negative plate as the battery dis-charges. Charging then removes the sulfate as part of the process.

Is this also true of the iron oxide on the positive plate?
That's one heck of a lot I see!
And destroyed those plates!

What actually caused this mess? Well, besides pure abuse..




Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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