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Jerry Volland
Junior Member


USA
77 Posts

Posted - January 29 2017 :  15:10:06  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm doing some experiments to reclaim some of my old PV batteries. A Google search shows that ammonium chloride is the solvent for lead sulfate, so I picked up some Sal Ammoniac at the hardware store. This is in the soldering section and is used for cleaning the soldering iron tip. Preliminary results look promising. Anyone else try this?

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massive
New Member



New Zealand
17 Posts

Posted - January 30 2017 :  14:56:52  Show Profile Send massive a Private Message  Reply with Quote
the number one metal that worries me is mercury and if it is snuck into other metals or solutions?

at the end of the day all we are looking for is potential difference in all these technologies
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - January 30 2017 :  21:34:53  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some batteries do contain mercury, along with cadmium, both toxic. Lead is also a hazard, especially in its plasma state. But getting mercury into the ammonia/hydrogen chloride furnace during the production of Sal Ammoniac seems unlikely.

____

Honesty is the purity of my Truth.

Edited by - Jerry Volland on January 30 2017 21:36:38
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 02 2017 :  06:39:51  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is an issue with chlorine gas emission. With a half teaspoon of powder added to each cell, the battery gives off the toxic gas while being charged, and also under load. But not while sitting. So these tests should be done outside.

_____

"A true prophet is the most dangerous creature in existence." Robert Heinlein
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 02 2017 :  19:50:50  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The improvement in my test battery seems to have peaked with the end of the chlorine smell. Next I'll try adding the powder, then letting it sit for a while without being connected.

_____

I am THIS I Am.
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 05 2017 :  13:21:14  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've read of this, but I don't believe anyone here has really tested.

Question one would be; Just how far gone are the batteries you're working with?

I have a few ready for the next recycle day in my town. Even the SSG can't help them...

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 09 2017 :  18:16:11  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The batteries are fairly old. They either won'r take a full charge, won't hold it, or both. The charging is rapid. Sometimes the reading is 16to 17 volts while charging. When charged, the voltage drops rapidly with even a small load. None will drive a 150 watt inverter.

All these batteries have been sitting for a couple of years or longer.

One battery will now run the inverter for 30 seconds, the other only drops to four volts overnight. Neither is releasing chlorine any more, so I'll repeat the test.

_____

On the fringe of the fringe


Edited by - Jerry Volland on February 09 2017 18:18:37
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - February 10 2017 :  08:27:58  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Jerry
You need to test the battery before you use anything on it so you have a base line to see if what you are doing does make a difference. For now Dead is Dead.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 10 2017 :  10:50:21  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right you are, Doug.

The big marine battery was reading 2.09 volts at the start, after sitting for a year or longer. Typical of a few others. The lawn tractor battery was still in use as it would charge my phone one time at night. (With) a USB charger.)

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - February 10 2017 :  11:06:10  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Jerry

Try using a tail light and C/d and record the voltage and on the Did time it. Do that once a day and see if it gets better (time)

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 10 2017 :  21:38:26  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK. I'll discharge it for a specific time and record the before and after voltage. Still waiting for some sunny days.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - February 11 2017 :  07:52:52  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Same Same I am so tired of gray

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 11 2017 :  16:51:23  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is great Jerry!
Someone has taken on the challenge.

With lead acid 's building so badly, is there still a way to revive?
I have a few I'd like to keep.

I look forward to your reports.

Where are you buying?
How much are you using? I mean per cell.. Not all cells are equally blocked, and should be treated accordingly.
Oh, so many questions...
Real happy to see you doing this!


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 12 2017 :  11:21:05  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I found out I've been using this incorrectly. Best results come from adding the powder, then just letting the battery sit for a while, rather than electrolizing the solvent. Surprisingly, just adding the solvent produces an immediate increase in a low battery's reading. And this reading goes up a little more as time goes by.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - February 12 2017 :  13:20:50  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Jerry

Do you have numbers?? Before and after

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 13 2017 :  16:17:47  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Doug,

I'm just now starting with the numbers. Here's what I've got, with the 20 Amp/hr lawn tractor battery:

Starting at 12.4 V. (after sitting overnight) it quickly dropped to around 7 V. before falling to 6.7 V. during the one minute discharge. After sitting for a few minutes, it went back up to 11.5 V. During the second one minute test,it immediately fell to 6.8 V. but held steady. Then it recovered to 8.5, holding at 6.9 V. Then it pulled back up to 8.7 V and dropped back to 6.9 V, but a little more slowly.

I charged the battery back up and I'll let it sit overnight, then test it again.

I'm using a bright 12 V desk lamp, but I'm not sure if it's a constant drain since it's dimmer at a lower voltage.

I'm going to switch over to my two oldest batteries which have been sitting for four years. Both read zero volts. The 'control' battery went to full charge in 15 minutes, then back to 4 V after an hour when disconnected. The identical large size marine battery will just get a half ounce of powder per cell, but no charge. The other, similar sized battery I tried this on immediately went from two month old sitting charge of 2.19 V to 3.37 V when powder was added. Then it slowly climbed to 3.6 V in 15 hrs then slowly went back down to 1.95 V after 24 hrs. Never charged yet, the additive may have been used up, ready for more powder. But I'll use my remaining supply for the new test.
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - February 13 2017 :  17:17:57  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Jerry

Well discharge is the best cure for a dead battery so get a very small bulb(low amps) and just charge and then discharge. Just keep it up for 2 or 3 days as fast as you can, then let it rest for 24 hrs after the last charge and compare to the start voltage. Note the light time on each discharge. Just note here DEAD IS DEAD and some tines you can't change it. LOL During discharge the positive plates gets the sulfated coating burned off and that's when you get longer light on time but that is why I told you to get a smaller bulb, start small then you can go larger later if it will work at all. Keep trying you may get some where but you will learn a lot just trying and report PLEASE.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 13 2017 :  19:01:32  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have a couple of smaller deep cycle batteries and with one of them I tried the standard method of repeated discharge/recharge cycles and it did bring it back to normal range. (No additive.) This was using a dry water pump as the load. I'm not so sure it has to be a very small, really slow drain. This Sal Ammoniac additive is a different approach and I don't think the battery needs to be cycled, or even charged for it to work. But I'm covering all bases. When I get around to powering my computer again (DEAD battery) I'll upload a picture of a sulfated plate. Only the top 20% is caked up. Only 20% DEAD. I found with my non-energized battery that just sloshing the electrolyte with additive resulted in .04 to .05 V increase.

I do plan to report my findings, but typing on this phone is a real pain.



_____
On the fringe of the fringe.
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - February 13 2017 :  19:17:02  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL LOL LOL

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 13 2017 :  21:52:26  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Laugh all you want. I intend to "learn something" by doing my own experiments.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 13 2017 :  22:06:24  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My Ed Gray thread at Heretical Builders (a very small forum) had 95,000 views by the time I was banned, just about a month before that forum itself was deleted. I came to this forum on a trial basis only, and find a lack of respect.

(edit: My Inertial Propulsion thread had 64,000 views.)

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.

Edited by - Jerry Volland on February 13 2017 22:12:29
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - February 14 2017 :  08:50:40  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Jerry
I was laughing at the phone comment. You learning helps us all and I am still learning every day and thanks. By the way I still don't text, laugh at that LOL

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 14 2017 :  12:42:45  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This light bulb crap is completely off topic to a solvent related discussion, especially when I reported that both charging, and discharging, destroys the solvent by liberating chlorine.

I'm going to take a break and let the solvent sit for a while and do it's job - IF it will. If I restore a battery to the point that it'll start my truck, I'll share it.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - February 14 2017 :  15:37:41  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK GOOD LUCK

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - February 14 2017 :  16:58:07  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Remember that every thing you remove from the plates and don't turn back into acid will settle on the bottom and short out the plate that you just cleaned so its a loose loose crap shoot.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 15 2017 :  08:48:43  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Doug,

Why do you keep saying DEAD IS DEAD? What does that have to do with the ones I'm testing?

edit: Flakes on the bottom? You DO need a solvent.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.

Edited by - Jerry Volland on February 15 2017 09:09:35
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 15 2017 :  16:52:58  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jerry, Please continue and report you results. No one else has gone this route and I'm 'very' curious what the results are!

Doug's statement of the 'crap' settling at the bottom of the battery is correct, as we use the SSG to recover. The SSG is a great tool for removing the sulfate from the plates, BUT, the sulfate still exists.
Collects in the bottom of the battery.

Curiosity comes in with the sal ammoniac..
Is it just removing from the plates or is it changing the composition of the sulfate?

This is where I hoped Rono would chime in.
Or, you answer.

'If', it changes the composition of the sulfate (especially if fluid), then should not the battery be drained?

I my mind once a battery is sulfated, the plates have been damaged. To what extent has it been and to what can it be recovered becomes the question.
I'm of the mind even a large enough battery recovered to even 50% of it's original state is better than it going in a landfill.
It still has a use.

Please continue to report your findings.


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 15 2017 :  17:06:17  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What I'm reading is your using 1/2 ounce of powdered SA per cell.
Is that correct?

I'll say this now, even if your computer is not currently running, I'm a 'huge' spreadsheet fan.
It makes it so easy to track and review.
I've written it down as such and transferred it later..
Just MHO..

Start voltage, end voltage, amount added per cell, when added to cell, wattage of draw, time of draw. You may even wish to track cells separately. If a cell has recovered, then only those not need more.

My greatest curiosity is what's happening to the sulfate?




Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 15 2017 :  21:06:00  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR,

Thinking about sugar water, dissolving something into solution doesn't alter it's molecular composition, although there will be some small amount of ion species present. It's debatable, from my limited perspective, as to whether or not the sulfate, once in solution, can be electrolyzed, returning the lead to the plates. If it does, that might affect the ph of the fully recharged battery. (I'll have to pick up a tester.) For now, I did change the electrolyte in the small 20 A/h battery, with favorable, but limited results. And I am keeping detailed records, on paper, but only the voltage readings, per minute and/or per hour.

The half ounce per cell per test is quickly eating my supply of the chemical. For now, I'm going to try a soak test to get a visual idea of the effect. I removed a couple of 5 1/2 X 11 inch plates from a large 6V battery with a damaged case:



The sulfate build up is very thin, except near the end of the positive plate, but still acts as an insulator. So removing and discarding this small amount of lead shoudn't reduce the capacity too much.


_____
On the fringe of the fringe.
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massive
New Member



New Zealand
17 Posts

Posted - February 16 2017 :  03:10:54  Show Profile Send massive a Private Message  Reply with Quote
this is only screen capture of HB forum . It was good site and yes Jerry did have large views on threads

You must be logged in to see this link.You must be logged in to see this link.


this battery thread could turn up anything so worth just letting it happen and give the man some space ......
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massive
New Member



New Zealand
17 Posts

Posted - February 16 2017 :  03:15:07  Show Profile Send massive a Private Message  Reply with Quote
also I have heard yrs ago John Deere tractors had well made batteries and here in NZ the lot (batteries) went to the tip and destroyed under supervision . these were obviously imported from usa .
this would be maybe 50s or so , the days of rebuildable plates etc

Edited by - massive on February 16 2017 03:16:42
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 16 2017 :  16:18:58  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Volland

Hi ODR,

The half ounce per cell per test is quickly eating my supply of the chemical. For now, I'm going to try a soak test to get a visual idea of the effect. I removed a couple of 5 1/2 X 11 inch plates from a large 6V battery with a damaged case:

The sulfate build up is very thin, except near the end of the positive plate, but still acts as an insulator. So removing and discarding this small amount of lead shoudn't reduce the capacity too much.


_____
On the fringe of the fringe.




Now this is an awesome idea!
Talk about being able to see just what is happening. Up close and personal!

I don't know where you live, so don't know your outdoor temps (assuming this soak will be outdoors). Also assuming that temp will mean something. Please add this to your notes, it may become important later.
I'm also assuming that the soak will be in the battery acid.

Also assuming that the required reaction needs the battery acid to do it's job.
If you know, please elaborate.

Excuse the assumptions, but you've stepped into the unknown..





Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 16 2017 :  19:59:34  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR,

I'm in NW Arizona; expecting a soaking. I've been doing roof work the past couple of days, so I'm hoping it does stay outside.

I mixed an ounce of Sal Ammoniac with distilled water in a gallon can. (No acid.) Just enough to cover the end of the plate about a half inch. After six hours, I see smoth, clean lead. And you're right, a hotter solution would act quicker. This might still work when diluted, but it's probably best to drain the battery before treatment.

I'll have my computer on tomorrow, dealing with a web site development company for my new site (exoalto dot space) so I'll upload a picture.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 16 2017 :  22:46:54  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by massive

this is only screen capture of HB forum . It was good site and yes Jerry did have large views on threads

You must be logged in to see this link.You must be logged in to see this link.


this battery thread could turn up anything so worth just letting it happen and give the man some space ......



Thanks for the support, Will. I'll also mention that when I was at energetic forum I posted as Electrotek. What "the rookie" did back then is still on public display.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - February 17 2017 :  06:52:06  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Both of your sites are blank

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 17 2017 :  07:34:28  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Volland

Hi ODR,

I'm in NW Arizona; expecting a soaking. I've been doing roof work the past couple of days, so I'm hoping it does stay outside.

I mixed an ounce of Sal Ammoniac with distilled water in a gallon can. (No acid.) Just enough to cover the end of the plate about a half inch. After six hours, I see smoth, clean lead. And you're right, a hotter solution would act quicker. This might still work when diluted, but it's probably best to drain the battery before treatment.

I'll have my computer on tomorrow, dealing with a web site development company for my new site (exoalto dot space) so I'll upload a picture.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.




Well now, that's interesting. I thought for sure it would require the acid to work.. Actually really like the fact it didn't.
Curiosity comes to what is in the bottom of the pan? Chunks, pieces of sulfate? Or has it dissolved the sulfate?

I live in the Nor'east, so I'll have to wait for warmer weather to try. Just not something I see trying in the workshop (confined area).


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - February 17 2017 :  09:00:46  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

The bottom of the battery is the most important spot, if it is shorted to the cell its dead. You can have the plates as clean as you can but a short is a short. I think he needs to test the electrolyte from that battery??? The other thing that makes a battery is the electrolyte, lets see how sediment is in the acid. I am sure ron o could come with a few more that is just as important.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 17 2017 :  10:07:33  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Doug,

I deleted my InterPlanetary Express site (The Space Office) because I've expanded my ambitions to include the entire volume within the helio pause, rather than only the plane of the planetary orbits. I just registered the new domain name and haven't built a landing page yet. Thanks for your interest.

@ODR: When I saw it was working I doubled the amount of water, to treat a larger area. After four hours, around midnight, the solution looked like a greenish black soup, so I pulled the plate and dried it off. This morning, the solution is clear (nothing on the bottom), slightly blueish, with a rusty looking film on top. The exposed area of the plate is also rusty - likely due to contamination from the tin can's inner coating - but all of the sulfate is gone. I'll use my remaining two ounces to fill the bottom of a flat tub and treat the entire plate. Stormy today, so no photos yet.


edit: Correction, I didn't SEE anything on the bottom. I went back out and swirled the solution so I could see through it a little better and there are flakes. Also, the water turned black again. Apparently, diluting the solvent reduced it's effectivenes. Or, more powder needs to be added.
_____
On the fringe of the fringe.

Edited by - Jerry Volland on February 17 2017 10:41:23
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 17 2017 :  12:26:12  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Think I read your post too quickly.. Thought you mixed with a gallon of water. Sounds more like a quart of water.

Close?

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 17 2017 :  13:43:10  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just about half a quart of water before more was added, bringing it to a quart. Now I'm debating about adding more chemical or straining it, then dissolving the flakes with a new batch. It appears that a heavily corroded battery will need to be drained of electrolyte, then repeatedly cleaned and drained until the solvent comes out clear. After that, new electrolyte can be poured in.

I'm down to two ounces of S/A, so the project will soon be on hold until I order more.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 17 2017 :  19:55:37  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thinking about this contaminate, it finally occurred to me that the can itself is a contaminate, due to the possibility of a galvanic reaction between dissimilar metals. I'll repeat the test using a different piece of lead in a plastic container.

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On the fringe of the fringe.
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - February 18 2017 :  09:06:14  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Jerry

Along the same lines you could use distilled water and glass you could see better through for pics.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 18 2017 :  12:54:08  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Doug,

A properly sized aquarium style tank for a single cell battery is an excellent suggestion. I'm putting the supplies on my list for my next monthly trip into town.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 18 2017 :  13:50:05  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Volland

Hi Doug,

A properly sized aquarium style tank for a single cell battery is an excellent suggestion. I'm putting the supplies on my list for my next monthly trip into town.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.




The aquarium tank sounds great. I was looking around here for a glass container (funny how minds when working together come up with this stuff). Finding several mason jars, but nothing really bid enough. I'll have to check Craig's list.



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 18 2017 :  14:01:11  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've got a ton of these plates on hand. Eight batteries, each with three cells. All of these cells have eight +'s in parallel and eight -'s in parallel. All of the batteries are minus the case. A small number of outer most plates melted in the fire which destroyed the previous resident's generator shed. But I still have around 375 of them. Still, I don't know how far I'm going to take the current project. Lead-acid storage just doesn't seem like the right way to go. The lead might better serve as a radiation shield, for my fusion arc, or a Coleman-Gillespie setup. With LENR, that might not even need a shield. But I am learning something with this solvent.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 18 2017 :  14:10:56  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's where I going to ask the question.
So many websites/folks are claiming the results of Epson salt (magnesium sulfate).

As I understand (correct please), that you can make a comparable electrolyte using water and M/S vs. using Sulfuric acid.
If true, fine, sounds safer to me.
Yet the claims are of Epsom salt dissolving the sulfate, is which I'm having a bit of a time with.

We all get how the LA battery works and sulfate is part of the process
In perfect conditions, a non-issue, yet I for one am not perfect and sulfate collects and becomes an issue.
I do believe even in the perfect world, that sulfate probably still collects and lands in the bottom of the battery.
I can not see how Epson Salt possibly does what is claimed.

Since I've never done the test.. opinion only..
And that isn't going to buy you a cup of coffee.. LOL

I really like where this thread is going!
So looking forward to you reports.


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 18 2017 :  16:49:05  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I tried Epsom Salt two or three years ago, with one of the lawn tractor batteries (20 Amp/hr), the other as a control. This was on the reported system of just adding an ounce of powder to each cell. I really couldn't tell any difference, as far as restoring the battery. That's what led me to do the Google Search for the correct solvent. The 'E' I placed on the label has long since worn off, so I don't know which of them I'm testing now. When I get more S/A, I'll drain and rince the other one, then fill it with concentrated solvent. After that I'll let it sit for as long as indicated by my latest effort. With that, one inch of water in the bottom half of a gallon jug almost completely dissolved my remaining two ounces of chemical. Now I'm going to see how many days it takes before I'm satisfied with the results. Or not. Right now, after one day, I see clean lead on one of the bottom tabs. The water is pale blue, with no gunk. But this flange doesn't have an opposing area on the adjacent plate. So I'm not holding my breath.

_____
On the fringe of the fringe.
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Jerry Volland
Junior Member



USA
77 Posts

Posted - February 18 2017 :  18:01:59  Show Profile Send Jerry Volland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
These burnt batteries I've been examining have four 3/4" tall ridges coming up from the bottom of the case, with the bottom tabs on the plates sitting on top of these ridges. This provides a pretty good sized area for debris to accumulate. It would take a pretty good pile, or some pretty big flakes, to short the battery. On the other hand, I can look down into one of my old batteries and it looks like sulfate has bridged the top of the plates in a couple of cells. Perhaps further down as well. Any thing's possible when it comes to a battery shorting out and that's just one more issue we have to contend with.

Edited by - Jerry Volland on February 18 2017 18:34:57
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1434 Posts

Posted - February 19 2017 :  08:38:35  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jerry do you have an opinion on using S/A over(vs.) Ammonium Chloride?

Internet searching is a bit confusing. Some say the same thing while others define a difference. Basically one natural, the other being made from.

Ammonium Chloride seems easier to get so far. Well, as a powder anyway..

You must be logged in to see this link. ammoniac

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - February 19 2017 :  09:16:24  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Jerry
If we assume that the ammonium chloride is reacting with the lead sulphate
to produce lead chloride ( which is parity soluble )
Then a second reaction could be introduced to produce lead oxide ( battery plate material )
However the logistics and potential dangers of such a process would need careful consideration
before any attempt was made to proceed
Disclaimer over !
Lead chloride reacts with sodium hypochlorite ( bleach ) to form lead oxide

ron
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - February 19 2017 :  10:50:45  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ron

This is the bleach and toilet boll cleaner NO NO?? Jerry's comment on the smell of chlorine was a connection but wasn't sure.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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SKYPE doug.bennett49er
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