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ron_o
Moderator


United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 07 2014 :  17:59:32  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In this topic Olddawgsrule ( ODR ) and myself shall attempt to design a practical application small waterwheel to drive a generator.

I shall help do the easy bit ( the calculations ) whilst Olddawsrule gets to do the fun bit.

ron

Edited by - ron_o on June 27 2014 19:49:03

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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 08 2014 :  07:08:49  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First of all, Thank you RonO for taking this on!

I'm heading up to his property next weekend or the following depending on his work schedule.
There's quite a bit to go over in this project, but first of all is practicality.

The purpose of the firs trip up there is to survey the land and check out the pond.

The pond is supposed to be 2 acre and the gradient (by topo) could be 300-500ft back to his home. The topo I found online does not show the pond (beaver pond, so could be post the drawing) but the stream does show.

Here I will start my list, and please do add to it.

1) Determine the grade, what can the drop can be
2) Volume of water supply and source
2a) Spring fed or winter run-off
2b) Depth, both overall and at exit (dam)
2c) Condition of the water (silty bottom, debris)
3) Distance and terrain to travel

I also wish to see his motor. He tells me it's fairly large and came off a ship he was working on.
I'll be bringing up 3 DC motors I've salvaged from 3 treadmills (2 are out now, the third coming out possibly today.

I'll post the spec's on them shortly.







Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 08 2014 :  08:01:52  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The first motor is a 17.2amp @ 7100 rpm (also has a statement of 2.5hp @ 130vdc)
The second is 21.4amp, no rpm stated but have to believe close to the first (states 1.5hp @ 96vdc)

Both come from treadmills so I assume both will be high rpm.

The third I've yet to remove, but should fall 17amp range (same size treadmill as the first)



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 08 2014 :  15:58:06  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

You are welcome.

I enjoy working on something new to me and since i have never done this before it logically falls into the "something new" category.

I have been looking at the different types of waterwheel on the net any their typical application location .

You will need to measure the stream velocity... simply time how long it takes for a suitable buoyant object to travel a marked out distance along the stream.

The type(s) of waterwheel we will be looking at do not turn at many rpm so quite a lot of gearing up will be required ( this may cast doubts on the suitability of the treadmill motors
but it would certainly be worth while keeping any gears etc from the treadmills ).

I assume the treadmill motors are permanent magnet type , i shall do the calculations based on this fact ( just to see what they are capable of )

ron


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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 09 2014 :  16:14:50  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just read yesterday about measuring stream velocity.
Funny how you'd bring that up!
They talked of a 20ft stretch of stream and calculating depth by taking readings every foot across to determine volume.
Then timing the travel of an object.

I see a formula coming!!

Yes they are PM's!

I have always felt the best opportunity for the Treadmill motors would be hydro, yet also know the gearing necessary is going to require greater force.
I've run some numbers on one of motors and am really looking forward to your formula to see just close I got.
Please use the First motor as the example.
I'm seeing I need to get at least 4800 rpm out of it to break a kilo-watt..

Seems like a lot, but I don't know..
Heh, reason I'm here and why I ask!



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 09 2014 :  17:46:31  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

I forgot to ask for the DC resistance of the motors , which i need for the calculations.

If an actual dam exists then the "head" height is the difference between the two water levels otherwise a theoretical "head" height is determined from the stream flow velocity.

Yes a formula ( or two ) will indeed be coming shortly.

If the required rpm is out of practical range then you could consider a home made generator.

ron

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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 10 2014 :  15:56:32  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to ask just what you're looking for..

Windings test out at 10.8ohms @ 200 setting

Motor resistance should be wattage/amperage sq'ed, no??
Wattage being 2236 (130vdc x 17.2amps)
Amperage being 17.2 (295.84)
Being motor resistance is 7.6ohms... right??
I understand rpm doesn't matter, but I feel it does
Motor resistance would be greater at start-up, then when up to speed
Or is this actually resistance at speed..
Getting way ahead of myself here






Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!


Edited by - olddawgsrule on June 10 2014 15:58:28
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 10 2014 :  18:12:34  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Thank you for the resistance reading ( this is required to allow me to estimate approx current generating power of motor )

Whilst briefly touching generator power output ... the generator in this case is a PM motor and so the information on the motor relates to when it is being driven / used as a motor. The output will be much less when used as a generator

Resistance = Watts / Amp^2 , so yes you are correct

When power is initially applied to the motor a surge of current ( limited only by the DC resistance of the motor windings etc ) but as the motor begins to pick up speed a BEMF
voltage is generated within the motor that "restricts" the current flow ( current flow now dependant upon supply voltage - BEMF voltage )

So in effect BEMF within the motor is proportional to rpm which in turn regulates the draw current

The DC resistance of the motor remains constant so no difference between start up and full speed

ron
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 11 2014 :  17:05:09  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Question for you;

Can pounds per sq inch be converted to Ft-lbs?
Or should I even being looking at Ft-lbs..

I found a formula I'm working with..
P = pgh
P would be pressure in pascals (you'll need to talk about this at some point)
p would be density of water kg per cubic meter
g would be gravitational acceleration
h would be height of water above outlet

So, p(density of water @ the surface) I understand to be 1,000 kg's per cubic meter
g,(gravitational acceleration) should be 9.81
and for example I'll say 4 meters for height
Gives me 39,240 pascals

1000 x 9.81 x 4 = 39240

Convert that to PSI (divide by 6,894.76) equals 5.69psi

39240 / 6894.76 = 5.69psi

Cool! Now what...

What type (?) of measurement are we really looking for to drive the generator?
I have Ft-lbs stuck in my head..

Oh yes, just for fun, explain to me at some point why we in the Colonies' had to change what everyone considers to be the norm in math to such a strange way of doing things...







Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 11 2014 :  19:32:06  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

"Can pounds per sq inch be converted to Ft-lbs?" The answer is not directly , it is possible to use pressure ( psi ) in say a hydraulic ram to provide a turning force ( torque ... ft.lbs ) BUT it would require direct measurement and calibration.

PSI is a measurement of force , ft.lbs ( torque ) is a measurement of work.

The power at the waterwheel drive shaft will be measured as ft.lbs ( or N.m )

A clue..... it will require a force acting against the paddle to move it

I was "raised" on the Imperial system ( inches , feet , yards , chains , furlong and oz , lbs , cwt ,tons etc ) thankfully we have sent these units to the waste bin . The SI units are so much simplier to work with.

ron
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 12 2014 :  17:28:58  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"A clue..... it will require a force acting against the paddle to move it"

Flow.. Need to know gpm

Also need to know what the flow will be turning..

This isn't as simple as finding a comparable unit of measurement or I'm approaching the problem wrong.
I can estimate what it will take in horsepower to turn the generator.
I can calculate what the dam could produce in pascal or psi
I can not match the two..

It seems to me, right now, without knowing gpm, I can not determine what the stream or output could turn..
I believe I've found a 'must' have piece of the puzzle.





Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!


Edited by - olddawgsrule on June 12 2014 18:00:35
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 12 2014 :  19:23:31  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

It's equation time !

I will be presenting the equations in the Metric SI format, the resultant answers can then be converted to Imperial units

1) amount of energy ( Power in Watts ) that can be generated from the flowing water

Power(watts) = Fall Height(metres) x Gravity x Density(kg/m^3) x Flow Rate(m^3/second)

Example... lets have a difference in water level of 4 metres( Fall Height ) and a Flow Rate of 35 Litres per second = 35/1000 = 0.035m^3/s

Power(watts) = 4 x 9.81 x 1000 x 0.035 = 1373.4 watts

This value will be reduced by losses in the design ( lets say about 65% efficient )
so actual power from the generator = 1373.4 x 65 / 100 = 892.71 watts.

Depending upon the flow rate and available head of water we have either the overshot or undershot waterwheel

The equation for the Head for an undershot wheel is:-

Head Height(metres) = Flow velocity ( metres/second ) ^2 / 2 x 9.81


The equation for the Spouting velocity for an overshot wheel is:-

Velocity(metres/seconds) = Square Root ( Fall Height in metres x 2 x 9.81

Examples to follow .....


I will continue with the waterwheel diameter calculation and expected rpm in the next part of this topic.

ron
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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 13 2014 :  18:26:33  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Equation Time , continued.

Acknowledgement .......

The equations used for the undershot and overshot waterwheel design are taken from a series of articles written by Rudy Behrens

ron




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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 15 2014 :  08:42:05  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is the link to the spreadsheet
I will continue to update and clean it up as we go
This is built in You must be logged in to see this link.(free software) and there are versions for all OS's (can be imported to excel)

This is a work in progress and not ready to be distributed


First sheet only so far.. Second is a collection of formula's and notes

You must be logged in to see this link.



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 16 2014 :  15:24:45  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

For some reason or another i have been unable to access the IAEC forum over the weekend so i have to do a bit of catching up with your spreadsheet.

Since the rotational speed of the waterwheel is going to be low some form of gearing will be required to meet the drive requirements of the generator , to this end i will start a new topic on gear drives ( which will be of use in other applications )

ron
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 16 2014 :  17:45:02  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
RonO, I tripped across this which I believe has a lot info in which we can (all can) use

You must be logged in to see this link.

The spreadsheet is a draft and open to opinions from all as to improve.
I will say building it in Open Office is quite the pain..
It is so limited as to compared to Excel..
Yet I wish it to be available to anyone. Free.



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 16 2014 :  17:49:11  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With the reading from the above link, I see there is even more to this before gearing comes into play.

Back to reading and learning!

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 17 2014 :  16:36:32  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

I agree with your comments regarding the sheer amount of information on waterwheels but at some point it will be needed.
Also when working "backwards" it is possible to estimate the size of waterwheel required to provide sufficient torque to drive the generator after the gear train that is necessary to increase the overall speed.

ron
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 17 2014 :  17:02:56  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've added a source of info on different types of waterwheels to the sheet as I read and learn.
Over-shot, under-shot, reverse shot, breast shot, reactive..
Oh My! The list goes on..

Some of these seem to be redundant in type.
A reverse shot seems to be an Under-shot stated differently
Breast-shot could go either way..
Reactive.. aren't they all??
More reading and learning..

I do agree that gearing has importance and will lay heavily later on.
Right now I'm trying to 'step' my way through this.
Waterwheel seems the next logical step.

Consideration of a sluice may be next..
Very interesting designs/concepts of creating more from what is available..
Maybe mis-stated and better said as getting everything you can from what is there.

More to read..


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 17 2014 :  18:22:53  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

You might find this link useful :-

You must be logged in to see this link.

I was quite surprised at the number of types ( and their variations ) of waterwheel.
The basic shape / design is in general quite simple , it's the add ons that improve the performance that in my opinion require addition investigation.

The undershot and overshot types seem to be the most common and the choice between these two is simply the head height of water available at the location.

I shall take a look at the builditsolar link.

ron
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 18 2014 :  16:25:40  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Penstock.. A new term to me..
I'm very much liking what the possibilities are here.
Take a flow of said value, increase it's pressure with height of land and pipes..
Hmm..
I'm seeing why they use it.
Now to calculate it..

I'm not asking, but again I am..
I am working in this direction to understand it.
I'll post what I learn.


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 18 2014 :  17:14:44  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

The link you gave to the waterwheel article on Built it solar is a real gem of information... nice find. I have read it a couple of times so far

So what's going on with a Penstock system , have you the available head height at the beaver dam pond ?

ron
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 19 2014 :  15:24:51  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm on the 5th or 6th time now..

Connecting with my cousin is a challenge to say the least..
Between his schedule and mine, we're shooting for the following weekend right now.

The best I have right now is what I've put together from Topo's.
At this point I will say 'height of land' is well within the range of something that could work very good.
Position of said pond along this route is still unknown, yet being one's there tells me there's sufficient flow to create a controlled basin.

Distance from source to use..
We'll get there.. Just not right now..


Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 19 2014 :  15:50:47  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Let's hope that your scheduled meeting can take place and then we will have some figures to work with and an idea as to which type of waterwheel to go with for optimum power extraction from the water supply.

ron
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 22 2014 :  12:13:33  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've come quite a ways with the sheet.
I'll post an updated version soon

Invoicing a stream is built
Determining Power in watts is built
I have calculations for an overshot, undershot and Pelton
Which has lead me to Jets (getting close on this)
And next will be Pipe flow restrictions

Would like you to clarify the term Mean Runner Diameter for me.

I believe when it states a 10:1 ratio of Mean Runner to Jet diameters it truly is.
If the Jet is 1", then the Pelton wheel will be 10".

What I'm not seeing so far is to determine the size of the bucket..

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 22 2014 :  14:38:38  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Latest version, cleaned up a little

Again posted to be reviewed, Not Ready for Publication!


You must be logged in to see this link.

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 24 2014 :  17:23:23  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a great picture of style or type of wheels;

You must be logged in to see this link.

Can't seem to post the pic, but the link is active.
I really do wish the picture had come through..
Open the file and look at the styles as you read..

What I'm seeing so far in choice of wheel depends upon height of land and length of usable land.

If you're on a stream (by a dam) and only have a short length of land to work with, then a Crossflow makes sense.

If you have height of land and distance to your favor I see the Pelton, Turgo and Francis styles coming into play.
But this means a Penstock (Piping, controlled flow)

I like the Pelton for the single or dual bucket design.
Yet both the Francis and Turgo designs lead towards the draft tube increasing it's efficiency.

Pelton allows flow to pass.
Both the Francis and Turgo will build pressure behind the wheel, then only allowing what it can use and holding back (building pressure?)

I have more to read and understand.





Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 27 2014 :  19:53:49  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Sorry for delay in replying about the mean diameter.... i have been unable to log onto the forum ?

Mean diameter is distance from centre to centre of "buckets"

lot of catching up to do !

ron

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 28 2014 :  18:42:19  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi ODR

Have you seen this very informative site on Pelton Wheels :-

You must be logged in to see this link.


ron
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screaminvern
Junior Member



USA
121 Posts

Posted - June 29 2014 :  01:18:12  Show Profile Send screaminvern a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi guys, this is full of info for what your doing. I just finished a year of environmental tech classes and I picked this up at a "Harvesting Clean Energy" conference last February.

You must be logged in to see this link.

Forgot to post this the first time:

You must be logged in to see this link.

{History does "not" repeat it's self, idiots repeat history.}

Edited by - screaminvern on June 29 2014 01:35:03
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - June 29 2014 :  08:32:18  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well now, some more reading to do!
Thank you folks!

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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ron_o
Moderator



United Kingdom
1052 Posts

Posted - June 29 2014 :  17:31:08  Show Profile Send ron_o a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Vern
Glad to know that you are still keeping an eye on us.
Thank you very much for the information and to quote ODR..."Well now, some more reading to do!"

Take care

ron
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screaminvern
Junior Member



USA
121 Posts

Posted - June 30 2014 :  13:05:27  Show Profile Send screaminvern a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Ron, I got really busy for a while but I'm still around (heh,heh).
Back in May I visited a micro-hydro system located here in the Snake River Canyon. They were using 6 "converted pumps as turbines" as per the first pdf on page 25. The system has the capability of producing 12KW per day.



{History does "not" repeat it's self, idiots repeat history.}
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - September 20 2014 :  08:55:42  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well now, finally I caught up to my Cousin and we surveyed the land and pond.

First the pond: It's seasonal.. bummer..
The out-flow this time of year is extremely low (trickle).
It is definitely a snow run off collection pond and the beavers have done a great job of insuring they have water all year.
Breaking into it would drain the pond..

The Stream:
As we first hike straight out to the stream (just under 400yds from the house) and step into the 'wash', you could step over the stream.
Not much there..
The wash is about 12ft across and about 4ft deep.
Run off is big!
We hiked up to the pond from there about 1/2 a mile and counted 4 other feeder streams along the way up (about a 200ft gain in altitude). Each having a smaller wash and the main wash being smaller as we passed each.

We did find a spot along the way up that a decent sized pond could be created and have a 50ft drop to point of generator. Problem of course is it would be short lived due to the inconsistent sources of filling the pond.

Now that I know exactly where everything is, I will hike back out during the snow-melt time and calculate the flow and duration of the stream.

I have numbers now to crunch and will post up if anyone has interest.



Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - September 25 2014 :  21:49:32  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@ olddawg

Have you seen MarK's work?




what you want is low RPM generators, if you are going with a DC setup.

if you are going with a very very tiny stream... you can use many small motors (for very low output). Like what you'd find with the search "high torque gear box motor" at a site like You must be logged in to see this link.

Extremely low RPM high torque gear box motors are also very useful for solar trackers.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on September 25 2014 21:50:28
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olddawgsrule
Advanced Member



USA
1433 Posts

Posted - September 27 2014 :  07:45:26  Show Profile  Visit olddawgsrule's Homepage Send olddawgsrule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you KC!
I hadn't...

Old in age, not in mind, so
'Teach me something new'!

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