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 Charge time of your fastest charger
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sucahyo
Average Member


Indonesia
246 Posts

Posted - January 24 2014 :  03:48:25  Show Profile  Visit sucahyo's Homepage Send sucahyo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello,

Someone in Indonesian forum argue that pulse charger can charge 10 times faster than linier charging. I want to argue back but I have no data. It seems charger manual also not too accurate about the time.

What is the charge time of your fastest charger? Please specify the battery capacity (mAh), type of battery, charge time, and output current (measured or specified), or input current & voltage.

You can also post charge time of your home made charger.


I would very appreaciate it. Thank you.

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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - January 24 2014 :  17:09:15  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heya Sucahyo.. how are you? Best wishes for 2014.

If I may add my 2c...

When it comes to lead acid batteries, anyway... there is a notable myth or shall we say "misconception" floating around, and that is, that if you take a battery to a cetain voltage, it's charged.

That's simply not true.

Lead-acid does not lend itself to fast charging. Typical charge time is 8 to 16 hours. And it doesn't matter how big the battery is or the charger!

"Saturation" Charge is where a battery is held at approximately 13.5V, and held there.

Typically, this is not a function of pulse charges, because, typically we all (myself included) build pulse chargers with zero logic.

They pulse and pulse and pulse the battery higher and higher, which is fine for restoration and desulphation, but it is not ideally how you want to charge a battery.

In addition, a superficial surface charge can be established. If you really want to see proof of this, try this experiment I did a while back. Build yourself a bridge rectifier, and rectify mains. Preferably through an isolation transformer because you can easily electrocute yourself if you don't. If you decide to do this without an isolation transformer NEVER TOUCH ANYTHING WITHOUT RUBBER GLOVES. NOTHING. Secondly build an SCR or relay activating PWM. Run your approximately 140VDC through the SCR or relay. Pulse it with the 555 PWM or the like. Charge your battery with this. You will see your voltage rocket quickly with this charger. Trust me. Why wouldn't you, you have over 120 volts of potential difference to play with. You'll find it appears to kill a Bedini in performance. Just make sure you do not exceed the amps in, for the system, i.e. the isolation transformer, or the bridge rectifier, wiring etc. Make sure you use an ammeter for this and never, ever even consider doing this outside on wet ground, or on anything but fire proof material. Never, ever leave it unattended, it is an experiment, not something you'd USE.

Now that you've seen a high voltage PWM absolutely kill any pulse charger's performance, consider why? It is the same reason a pulse charger appears to more efficiently and quickly charge a battery compared to a conventional charge. High Voltage.

You will quickly learn that how fast your battery "charges" is completely and totally irrelevant. Pulse chargers appear better, simply because they take the coltage up, higher, faster. However, this is not how you properly take care of a battery. It's how you equalize or desulphate a battery. there is a difference. The higher the voltage on a positive plate, the higher your corrosion factor is.

It is amazing how most of us, myself included, were lead down an experimental road thinking that we'd change the history on how a battery is charged. In reality, we were all deceived by Bedini and the likes. They like to claim the opposite is true. it's not the case. If there is one thing Bedini knows little about; it's chemistry. Sure he understand electricity but his knowledge of chemistry is poor.

I use pulsing for equalization and desulphation but i certainly dont use it for daily charging, with the one exception wherein my inout voltage is very low, as in a peltier module attempting to charge a battery. where my imput has no chance of producing the correct voltage.

Read this article about charging batteries, it explains how, when done properly, it is done in phases:

"During the constant-current charge, the battery charges to 70 percent in 5–8 hours; the remaining 30 percent is filled with the slower topping charge that lasts another 7–10 hours. The topping charge is essential for the wellbeing of the battery. If deprived, the battery will eventually lose the ability to accept a full charge and the performance will decrease."

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* footnote

Sucahyo has an interesting circuit that blends pulse and conventional current that works well. If one were to add a small bit of logic to it... it would make a very viable commercial product, and if fact, there is a charger on the market, that is very similar. So, in saying all of this, pulsing HV does have it's place... but let's not be blindly lead into thinking that because a battery reads 14.8V, it's charged...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on January 24 2014 17:27:50
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sucahyo
Average Member



Indonesia
246 Posts

Posted - January 24 2014 :  20:33:50  Show Profile  Visit sucahyo's Homepage Send sucahyo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you. Best of luck and wishes for you too kcarring.

The opposite may also be true, lead-acid may not be suitable with super slow charging.

What did you observe when the battery was pulsed pulsed and pulsed?

What is the battery voltage reading during your 140VDC charging? Did the cell get hot or still cool?

I think high voltage charging are not the same as radiant charging. But still, charging must not be 100% radiant, it must be alternated with 100% normal electricity. 50% radiant would not obtain the same results.


For charging, I would prefer to use my stingo than my cheap charger, the charge time difference is huge, the capacity difference is also significant. But this cheap charger only supply 60mA linier so not exactly comparable to stingo, which supply average of 350mA the last time I checked.

Yes, thanks. I really want to add logic to my stingo.

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Edited by - sucahyo on January 24 2014 20:37:22
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - January 24 2014 :  21:34:52  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is my belief that pulse charging IS high voltage charging, differing only in that it does not carry a lot of current. I don't believe there is such a thing as "radiant energy", and my point in this is pretty simply, if you have no decent evidence for something existing, you truly do not have a theory at all. Thus is the case for radiant energy. John Bedini is an absolute con artist if you ask me, a complete insult to anyone who has attended even ONE year of post secondary science, physics or electrical. Which to my knowledge, he has not. He carries a military training course in EE, and he is heavily deluded in his theories -- to be exact -- he comes to conclusions without even a single stitch of REAL evidence.

Radiant energy is energy from the sun.
From a wood stove.
RF might be considered radiant too.

But it certainly does not come from a coil.

The high voltage experiment is just that; a demonstration that an abundance of voltage will indeed take the voltage of a battery higher, quicker. The PWM alloys you to set the pace. To avoid over heating.

If you scope an H-wave and the battery itself, you'll see that the transient spike is mostly quenched. I think of it like an ice pick, it is very effective at penetrating a battery that DOESN'T WANT to take a charge.

On the flip side of the coin --- none of this should be (yet it, constantly) miscontrued as "good charging behaviour". I'm not alone on this theory. Tinman himself stated "you don't want to continue to charge this way, it's for desulphating". Even John Bedini's Solar Product is basically a PWM charger, it's not a "radiant device".

There is a reason you limit current (however you wish) to saturate charge a battery. If you don't, and run the voltage up high, every time, you'll unnecessarily corrode the + plate and reduce capacity.

Oppositely, a pulsed coil continues to take the voltage higher and higher and higher until the user disconnects. And it does this with limited current (h-wave) --- but it is by no means an effective way of charging. It's a great way to equalize or desulphate tho!

THE ONLY reason that people conclude it is a good way of charging, is because no one actually uses any measurable amount of current!!

the confusion lies in the fact that most experimenters get their hands on a battery, which is in poor condition. This may even be a battery that is new on the shelf. Then they desulphate it, and see gains in voltage (standing) and capacity. From there, they conclude that this mehod of charging is better, when in reality, at this very point, is when they should go to PWM pulsing current, OR add logic to their device, the point is, don't continue to raise the voltage abouve 13.8. and DO saturate for long periods of charge at 13.5 -- neither of which can you effectively do, without adding some logic to your pulser. in short they think they are on to something good, when it reality, they are, but they are also about to continuely damage the battery instead of having it serve them much much longer.

WHY?

BECAUSE A LEAD ACID BATTERY LIKES TO BE CHARGED BY SITTING AT 13.5v FOR MANY HOURS. ANY BATTERY. ANY SIZE. PERIOD. THIS ALLOWS THE CHEMICAL PROCESS TIME TO FINISH. A CHARGE BATTERY IS NOT DETERMINED BY VOLTAGE.

I dare you to charge PULSE CHARGE a car battery this and push 10A. You will corrode your battery, every fricken time. In short you can sharge a large battery just about anyway you wish with an amp of current. Who cares. Try it with 10A, or 20, or 40. This is also evident even on a manual battery charger. Attach a 40A (manual) charger to even 1000 amp-hours of deep cycle batteries and at the top end, you'll find yourself turning down the current to avoid hitting 15V.

so back to pulse charging...

So sure, it works fine for a dinky 1A device, but try to scale it up.

It doesn't scale too well. A question John Bedini himself cleverly evades whenever raised.

In fact, john's own, biggest, largest charger the "Ferris Wheel" (albeit a completely different circuit in and within itself) -- was claimed to be a $40,000 device. Later it was on the web site for sale.

A bad joke at best, in a attempt to sell > $400 tickets to the show.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wouldn't laugh at my igloo if you knew how cold my beer is!

Edited by - kcarring on January 24 2014 21:51:14
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sucahyo
Average Member



Indonesia
246 Posts

Posted - January 24 2014 :  22:52:11  Show Profile  Visit sucahyo's Homepage Send sucahyo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By accepted definition, pulse charging is pulse of high current with some rest time. From what I know, forcing higher current require higher charging voltage. Pulse charger is not radiant charger. Radiant charger is different that the charge pulse begin with high voltage spike followed by the usual charging voltage, in shape of h wave.

Here is what posted by ronym at freeenergyindonesia.proboards.com
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quote:
"To evaluate the performance of the charger and the charging method proposed in [4], two 28 Amperehour VRLA gell lead acid batteries were acquired with approximately the same capacity.

The charging current of 7 amps represents a typical overnight charging
rate for this sized battery, and was the limit of the conventional charger supplied.

In Figure 8 a selected result of a typical charging profile on the modified battery using conventional charging techniques is shown. The charging current of 7 amps represents a typical overnight charging rate for this sized battery, and was the limit of the conventional charger supplied. As illustrated here, once the terminal voltage reaches the charging voltage (usually between 13.5-14.7volts) the charging rate is dictated by the charge acceptance of the battery and contributes to as much as 80% of the charging time. After 3 hours, 50% of capacity is returned and the rate of charge for the remaining 50% is very slow, taking in excess of 30 hours.

This same battery was tested with the invariant current pulse of figure 4 with 28 amps peak current being applied for 200msecs, and then zero amps for 600msecs, giving an overall period of 800msecs and an average current of 7 amps for comparison with the conventional charger.

An obvious advantage of the pulse width invariant method is that in just 3 hours 80% of the capacity of the battery had been restored."


Bedini do not have theory. It is people around him who make theory, it is better to ignore the theory, only look at the fact, only use the fact.

Let us assume that radiant charger is charger that utilize coil collapse current. Please ignore radiant definition in other field.

I want know what is the battery voltage when you use 140VDC, in order to compare with radiant charger.

I think Bedini solar product use capacitor charging, mentioned in one of his patent, the one that do not use radiant, the one that use capacitor to collect and dump directly to the battery.

Limiting current very is important during near full state, to reduce gassing. Gassing can significantly reduce capacity.

I don't know what you mean by h-wave limited current. From what I know, the current will be higher on radiant charger nearing a full state because the battery would have less internal resistance.

I also confuse by charging at stable 13.5V. From what I know, empty battery charge voltage would be less than that, it would be an awesome controller to be able to make that kind of stable charge voltage from empty to full.

The link above mention charging battery with pulsed 28A.

My stingo belong to radiant charger category. I would not hesitate to use it as long as the battery is not lithium based. Much faster, more capacity and cooler battery.

But to really compare, I need to know how fast is the current "state of the art" charger, for NiCd, MiMH or Lead Acid.

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sucahyo
Average Member



Indonesia
246 Posts

Posted - January 26 2014 :  02:39:14  Show Profile  Visit sucahyo's Homepage Send sucahyo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is an example that I found on amazon, but this result bellow is pathetic, I don't think this charger bellow represent modern charger, look more like my cheap charger in term of performance:

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quote:
So it is a smart charger, not a timer. I also measured the current going into the battery. It is not 360mA, but a pulse of about 1400mA that averages out to 360mA. This is good because 360 is low enough that the batteries won't get hot (heat kills batteries!) but the 1400mA pulse should prevent a memory effect and also gives the charger a clearer indication of when the battery is full.

................

So the only downside is the one indicator light and the fact that it will take 6 hours or so to charge an empty battery. But if you are just topping off your batteries it should take much less time.


360ma average, but full charging require 6 hours. My single stingo also produce similar charging current, but charging time is much faster. The sony charger obviously not a "state of the art" charger.

Mine, I remove the internal circuit. the meter show current that goes to the battery from single stingo charger:



I would prefer stingo over the sony charger.

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Edited by - sucahyo on January 26 2014 02:55:59
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sucahyo
Average Member



Indonesia
246 Posts

Posted - January 26 2014 :  07:09:22  Show Profile  Visit sucahyo's Homepage Send sucahyo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found another example that is not as pathetic:

You must be logged in to see this link.
For 1000mAh battery, with 500mA charging current, 1 hours 40 minutes.


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For 700mAh to 1200mAh battery, with 500mA charging current, 1.5 hours to 3 hours.


Much better, but still bad.

Anyone has teslacharger or r-charge product like RC-1AU, and can share charging speed ?

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Edited by - sucahyo on January 26 2014 12:06:12
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sucahyo
Average Member



Indonesia
246 Posts

Posted - January 29 2014 :  21:07:16  Show Profile  Visit sucahyo's Homepage Send sucahyo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I found it very weird that no one mention faster charging speed for Bedini's approved r-charge RC-1AU.

You must be logged in to see this link.


This make me suspect that their product do not use radiant (coil collapse current), but instead use the one with capacitor mentioned in patent bellow:
You must be logged in to see this link.

Even if the circuit produce radiant, using capacitor will turn the radiant into normal electricity. And the lack of "faster charging speed" comment in r-charge product testimony indicate that using capacitor would make the charger as slow as other commercial charger.

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sucahyo
Average Member



Indonesia
246 Posts

Posted - January 30 2014 :  00:57:08  Show Profile  Visit sucahyo's Homepage Send sucahyo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I found r-charge charge time:
(Bedini) Reinaissance Charger, RC-2A12: potentialtec.com/­OwnersManual_2A12_3-30-11.doc
Fully discharged 25 AH or 200 CCA Battery . . approx. 11 Hours
Fully discharged 50 AH or 400 CCA Battery . . approx. 22 Hours
Fully discharged 100 AH or 850 CCA Battery . approx. 44 Hours

Reinaissance Charger, RC-1AU
potentialtec.com/RC-1AU-Manual.pdf
Fully discharged 1AH (1,000mAh) Battery . . approx. 2-4 HRS
Fully discharged 3AH (3,000mAh) Battery . . approx. 4-8 HRS
Fully discharged 7AH (7,000mAh) Battery . . approx. 8-14 HRS

My suspicion were correct. Their product charge time is the same as other modern commercial charger. It is a pity.

I am glad I do not fall into the suggestion to use capacitor dumping method (capture radiant with capacitor and then dump to the battery).

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Edited by - sucahyo on January 30 2014 00:57:43
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sucahyo
Average Member



Indonesia
246 Posts

Posted - February 20 2014 :  23:01:44  Show Profile  Visit sucahyo's Homepage Send sucahyo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I found another info about Bedini solid state charger:
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quote:
John and I have run tests with prototype, solid-state, radiant chargers that draw ONE WATT (12 volts @ 80ma) from the source battery and can charge a 7 amp-hour gel-cell battery from 10.5 volts (fully discharged) up to 14 volts in under one hour (3600 joules). This newly charged battery is then discharged by being connected to a sine-wave inverter and running a 100 watt light bulb for 40 minutes (240,000 joules). After discharge, it can be charged back to full again by the one watt charger in about an hour.


This make it obvious that what they sell is not a radiant charger.

I consider it possible, I will use this number as base to improve my charger. I believe that there is still room for improvement for stingo. If they can do that, then there must be flaw in my circuit that I not yet understood.

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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - February 21 2014 :  08:04:37  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi sucahyo

What you have found is Bedini salesmanship, you can charge a 7ah battery that fast but you will have to see that it does take a toll on it (shortens its life). This is Bedini selling a idea and its not his batteries that end up in the dump. The people that made the batteries tell you how long it should take and each type battery will be different, but not in 1 hour. They make quick chargers for NiCad and that type application and it does work for awhile but you go buy new ones after 50 or so charges instead of 500 or 1000 cycles it is and will be up to you so be for warned.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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sucahyo
Average Member



Indonesia
246 Posts

Posted - February 21 2014 :  09:58:48  Show Profile  Visit sucahyo's Homepage Send sucahyo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you. I am aware that Peter Lindemann is a salesman. But I am confident that even if I modify my charger to charge 7Ah in an hour, the battery life would not be short.

My stingo once charge 1000mAh within 2 minutes, but I don't know the charge current. The charge is real, and the battery life is not short. I stop the charging before the battery get even warm. Even then the battery will show maximum nominal voltage of 1.35V. I have been doing that for months before the charger broke because of a mistake.

The battery do not heat up during charging, the charge current is still under the maximum limit. There is no reason for the battery to shorten its life. I charge nicad/nimh battery very often and the only time the battery get ruined is when I forgot to use timer.

I wouldn't hesitate to use my stingo to charge battery faster than fastest recomendation. Because even if the charge time is faster, the charging current still within tolerable limit.

Charging 7Ah within an hour should be still within normal limit for stingo. Someone who buy my stingo report that stingo charge 70Ah 12V within 15 hours, with charge current of 1A. For 7Ah then the charging time should be around 1.5 hours. 1 hours may take about 1.5A charge current. 1.5A still 1/5 C for 7Ah. I think 1/5C still within allowable limit.


My goal is to increase the performance / efficiency. I still have some trick to try.

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Edited by - sucahyo on February 21 2014 10:10:53
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