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 Alum /Akaline Battery
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msmjr
Average Member


USA
444 Posts

Posted - December 24 2011 :  20:50:18  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Guys
Thought I share some info on a test battery Im trying to condition. Its from a video that Twally posted of John Bedini's. I used Alum and distilled water to make a akaline battery to see what happens. I know some of us work inside and I thought this would be a lot safer.
I drained all the Sulfuric Acid I could out, rinced twice, then added the mix (JB showed 1 of the larger spic bottles of Alum to 1gal of water). Funny thing was after 6hrs rest the battery was at 11.24v (I expected lower) 9 days later 12.86v.

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Twally if you would please repost that video here. Thank You

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus

Edited by - msmjr on December 24 2011 20:54:03

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twally67
Average Member



USA
251 Posts

Posted - December 24 2011 :  21:17:26  Show Profile Send twally67 a Private Message  Reply with Quote


sometimes meltdowns though kinda $$ make the best inspirations!!!

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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - December 25 2011 :  15:48:19  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank You Twally
It took a week to get it over 12v but in the last 2 days it jumped tp to 13.15v
Im anxious to let it rest but I dont want to stop to soon. I know patience. lol

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - December 25 2011 :  18:27:09  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi MSM

Thanks for the video I haven't seen that one yet



Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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IrishDave
Senior Member



Ireland
850 Posts

Posted - December 26 2011 :  07:57:58  Show Profile Send IrishDave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought I had watched all of Ricks videos, but that one must have passed me by.

Very interesting.

Is hydrogen being produced with the bubbles?

They don't sell Alum in the shops here so it is something I would have to order online.

msmjr - Do you mean the battery was resting for 9 days or charging?
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - December 26 2011 :  08:44:02  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Dave

Bubbles in a battery I IMHO would think like you ask must be hydrogen LOL but the way it bubbles they add a lot of water.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - December 26 2011 :  18:29:12  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey dave
I found it at the grocery store in the spice section.
And its been charging for 9 days. Today #10 at 13.35v
I know its a big battery but this is taking forever. LOL

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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IrishDave
Senior Member



Ireland
850 Posts

Posted - December 28 2011 :  12:51:55  Show Profile Send IrishDave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msmjr.

I have searched all the Irish stores in the spice sections and even asked staff.
None of them have even heard of it.
I also checked all the local Health Food stores.
We have some Caribbean, Polish, African and Russian stores that have sprung up over the last few years, so I will give them a try in the coming days.
I also tried to track down some Borax and salt substitutes which Lidmotor has been using in his crystal batteries along with the Alum and again no shops here seem to sell them.
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Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - December 29 2011 :  00:31:51  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey IrishDave , Are there local taxidermy suppliers closer than this to ya ? I have no idea if those prices are expensive or not but, you can buy in bulk if you wanted they claim.. IDK.. Hope it helps

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=============================================================================================================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - December 29 2011 :  07:18:34  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Dave-i think you could get it at a chemist as it is only hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate.Even if you can only get it in powder form you just add water ,which you do anyway when mixing it for the batterys.

Remember-when you make a mistake you have just learned how not to do it.This only brings you one step closser to success.The only way to fail is to never try>>>>TinMan<<<<
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - December 29 2011 :  07:52:00  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Dave

Just a reminder that with alum the battery will freeze like water if you keep them in the shed. Just a thought.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
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IrishDave
Senior Member



Ireland
850 Posts

Posted - December 29 2011 :  12:06:01  Show Profile Send IrishDave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cheers for the input guys.

I don't know of even one Taxidermist let alone a taxidermy suppliers.
I will check out the phone book and see if any are listed.
Just got off the phone to my local chemist and again they have never heard of it.
I will have to get some online if the foreign shops don't sell it.

Nice reminder Doug - never occurred to me that it might freeze.
I am however more interested in making crystal batteries with it and plan to use them indoors.
I don't like using lead acid batteries in the house, but I would have no problems if they are safe to use with Alum and water.

Is anyone else planning on replacing their batteries with the Alum mix?
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Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - December 29 2011 :  21:10:35  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Guy's, Do ya'll think ( propylene glycol ) would stop the charge activity in the cell . It's what is considered pet safe antifreeze .. We usta put calcium chloride in Tractor tire's with water to keep em from freezing. But it is a little caustic itself .

=============================================================================================================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...
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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - December 30 2011 :  00:08:41  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
sorry never really saw much of this early on i guess.. whats supposed to be the deal here? you replace the sulfuric acid in your lead acid's with some kind of Alum mix? if so whats the benefit? or like, what does it do lol... OR are we talking about doing this to crapped out batteries to try to restore them?

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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twally67
Average Member



USA
251 Posts

Posted - December 30 2011 :  16:20:24  Show Profile Send twally67 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i think the whole purpose is to have a battery that you can use that will not vent sulfuric gas but vent a safer gas that isn't harmful....

sometimes meltdowns though kinda $$ make the best inspirations!!!

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Magneticitist
Senior Member



USA
681 Posts

Posted - December 30 2011 :  17:59:47  Show Profile  Visit Magneticitist's Homepage Send Magneticitist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ahh i see. im sure it works cause of all the batteries ive put plain tap water in.. over time thats not good for them but works nonetheless.. a better electrolytic mixture would make the difference i can see.. the question i guess is does it output the same?

[on the gravy train with biscuit wheels]
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twally67
Average Member



USA
251 Posts

Posted - December 30 2011 :  23:48:38  Show Profile Send twally67 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well the battery seems after it's been formed by radiant charging first then drained and washed out and refilled with the alum and water mix it acts more like a nicad in respects to charging and discharging and yes there is alittle loss in amp hour but the only battery i tried it on was a lawn tractor battery (235 amp battery) and it dropped to more like 215 amp..

sometimes meltdowns though kinda $$ make the best inspirations!!!

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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - December 31 2011 :  22:36:33  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Dave
Not sure if this helps You must be logged in to see this link.
You must be logged in to see this link.
What would it take to ship to you. BTW those bottles are about 4oz. So 4oz per gal is my guess.

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus

Edited by - msmjr on December 31 2011 22:49:50
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IrishDave
Senior Member



Ireland
850 Posts

Posted - January 02 2012 :  09:40:16  Show Profile Send IrishDave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cheers for the link :)
A bag of white powder coming through Irish customs should be fun lol.
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 02 2012 :  22:10:22  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL as long as im not the 1 carrying it!

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 03 2012 :  20:55:00  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK All
After 17 long painfull days (like watching water boil) that battery finaly got to 14.25v. Rested for 12hrs to 12.49v. Hooked up a small 194 bulb, took about 10hrs to drop to 12.23v, 2hrs rest back up to 12.32v On the charge again.....like a band of coilers.........oh nvm lol.
In my 20/20 hindsight I shouldve started with a good fresh battery or 1 thats a lot smaller to realy see the difference.
I keep you up to date.

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 07 2012 :  21:56:08  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Guys
Just an observation Ive made is that this battery seems to keep hitting ceilings. First on my 2 coiler it stopped at 13.5v. I hooked it up to my 5 coil SampuExpress and it charged to 13.75v in about 24hrs but stalled there. I backed off the charge to 13.6v for 2 days, just pushed it back up and it jump to 14v right away. Not sure if this is normal or specific to this battery. Anyone know??

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 09 2012 :  00:07:17  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey SD
I saw that too but Im just not sure thats whats going on. At that sweet spot it stops charging all together. I have to back off 25ohms on the trigger for a couple of hours battery voltage drops .2-.3v the push it back up. I have to keep cycling it to get any gain.

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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TinMan
Advanced Member



4082 Posts

Posted - January 09 2012 :  04:02:22  Show Profile Send TinMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msn-this is how you fix the problem your haveing.First thing to do is tip out the liquid thats in there and rince the battery out again until very clean.Next -place it on a large block of wood and hit it with the axe until the lead plate,s are exposed.Then melt the lead down into sinkers.Once this is done go buy some bait ,head of down to the ocean to a nice quiet beach and throw a line in. While waiting for the big one-just sitting there relaxing,it's then you will realize just how much enjoyment that battery has given you

Remember-when you make a mistake you have just learned how not to do it.This only brings you one step closser to success.The only way to fail is to never try>>>>TinMan<<<<>>Were's the vidio??<<<
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - January 09 2012 :  04:50:18  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The NiCD behaviour makes sense. The Edison batteries lasted 25-50 years, I've personally used some in logging camps that were over 45 years old, and they were alkaline, not acid too - NaOH. They discharge left alone quicker than an acid battery, butthey love to be worked, partially charged, overcharged, anything really. Perfect for today's solar requirements.
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 09 2012 :  07:07:53  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL TinMan
Sounds like a plan (not the battery part) Ive done that many time I just find it hard to hold the fishing rod when a glass of margrita is in 1 hand and a cigar's in the other. Had to take the bait off once because the fish upset my drink.

Kcarring
I looked into this a little and I like the idea a lot. Seems that the nickle might hard or expensive to get but it fell on my to do list. Thats the list of things between, need to do and things to do when I have nothing else to do. LOL

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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kcarring
Moderator



Canada
1057 Posts

Posted - January 09 2012 :  17:12:00  Show Profile Send kcarring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@msmjr

Nickel is an issue. Agreed. I'm Canadian so i go buy about 100 dollars worth of nickels and sort them out for the pre-1980's which are 99% nickel. Like any battery tho, home-made, obtaining the surface area is tricky. My attempt produced a cell that when scaled up, would require a battery the size of a compact car, to equal 100 amp hours.
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Kudzu
Administrator



USA
1619 Posts

Posted - January 09 2012 :  21:04:59  Show Profile Send Kudzu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey msmjr, You can separate the top and fix the battery if the plates are broken or touching .. On the top you should find the seam and carefully separate it and when your done it can be sealed back with a good rtv sealant .. After you separate it if its beyond repair just save the lead and keep the housing for a iron-nickel battery .. Should make a neat housing to make a test a iron- nickel battery ..

==================================================

I still think the only dumb questions are the one's you didn't ask ...
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 17 2012 :  19:23:30  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Guys
You know what helps? A charger that works right. I got a 0-1 amp meter last week and to my horror
I was only getting 50ma out of my 5 coiler. Still not sure what happened but I swapped out the 5T tranny and presto!! 230ma took about 4 days to hit 14.75v, rested for 4 hrs to 12.67v. The 194 bulb has been on for 24hrs now still not down to 12.00vts. Me thinks we have progress!!

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - January 17 2012 :  20:28:32  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
HI msm

That bulb is a little light LOL only 27ma . A 175 at .58 or a 205 at .6 looks like your next steep. Did you find what was wrong with the other charger. Thanks for sharing



Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 17 2012 :  21:35:54  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey 49er
No not yet its a combo of tip31 and tip3055 on a bread board. Ive had it all apart tested every thing and put it back together. Same .....umm.....stuff. haha And yes about the bulb Ive got a 1157(parking light side) wired up for the next round, we'll see how that goes.

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - January 17 2012 :  22:23:10  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm

The 1157 on the break side is 2.1 amps also the tail light side is .59ma so you have two amps to chose from. From what you have told us it sounds like your going in the right way so good luck

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 22 2012 :  23:18:34  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Guys
Got this battery up to 14.89v and it started to drop off a bit. It must be afraid of 15. haha
Let it rest for 4hrs and it settled in at 12.67v. Hooked up the 1157 bulb tail light side for the last 9hrs and its holding on to 12.15v. Probably would have lasted the night. Decided to stop there and back on charge in the morning. So far so good.

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - January 23 2012 :  08:19:14  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm

What amps are you putting in?

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 23 2012 :  18:15:55  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey 49er
About 200ma off my Bedini but this morning I hooked up my SS SSG at 400ma. When I got home this evening its still running and at 13.31v. Thats 11:00 hours.

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - January 23 2012 :  18:25:39  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm

Is that good or fair? Is that comparing to the 3 coiler?

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 23 2012 :  19:23:51  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey 49er
Thats compared to my 5 coiler. Tony the Tiger says "Thats Great"

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - January 23 2012 :  19:38:22  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm

How is the Alum battery doing? Glad you like the quiet LOL

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 23 2012 :  20:10:25  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey 49er
I belive thats its doing good but I ditched the battery classes you gave. LOL I was going to ask you at what point do I say thats good enough? I guess I have some studing to do huh?

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - January 23 2012 :  20:22:53  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm

Do a full charge at C25 rate and rest it 8 hr and the discharge at a C25 rate and record the time draw it down to 11.8 volts. If you get 4 to 5 hrs I would say your doing good. do you know C25 rate?

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 23 2012 :  20:48:32  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey 49er
No not sure the only markings on this battery are 100amp Battery,
rest is in German (I assume)
Kaltstarstrom 450A
Kapazitit 100Amp
Nennsoannung 12V

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - January 23 2012 :  21:21:51  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm

I think you are right 100 amps and you can look it up on the battery info sheet I posted here

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Good luck

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  05:47:21  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey 49er
So at a 5amp draw this thing should last 20hrs?

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - January 24 2012 :  12:08:00  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm

New and with acid in it yes. BJ has said that the alum battery should be run at C25 or 80% so 3.2 amps for 20 hrs yes. So do a full charge Wait 1 hr and discharge full to 11.7 or 8 and record the time that should be 100% of what the battery has and do a % of the time to the 100% at 20 hrs will give you how good your battery is holding up.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - January 25 2012 :  22:48:24  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey 49er
Well I screwed up the timing a bit but heres what I got. Left for work charging at 14.91v, ended up having to work late so it was on for more than 30hrs. Got home it was at 14.87v (did I miss 15 darn) rested about 2 hrs to 12.75v. Hooked up the bulb with both brake & tail light filliments which gave me 2.75 amp draw and lasted 10hrs to 11.8v. rest volts back up to 12.23v. Looks like it still needs a little work. Tomorrow Im going to try to finish this charger before I start it back up.

He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus
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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - January 26 2012 :  12:36:42  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi msm

I think your right in line, It should get better every time you discharge it. The 2 3/4 amps for 10 hrs is very good at this point keep up the good work..

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
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shakamuni01
Average Member



USA
213 Posts

Posted - May 15 2012 :  07:29:31  Show Profile Send shakamuni01 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Instead of using alum could lye be used?
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shakamuni01
Average Member



USA
213 Posts

Posted - May 15 2012 :  07:50:27  Show Profile Send shakamuni01 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is this the Alum you all are talking about or is this something else:

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49er
Administrator



USA
4443 Posts

Posted - May 15 2012 :  10:20:35  Show Profile Send 49er a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi shak

Lye should not be used and the alum is the type that you can buy at your local food store in the baking section.

Doug
The sky is not the limit...There are footprints on the MOON.
Your only as DUMB as where your standing.
No matter where you go there you are.
You must be logged in to see this link.
SKYPE bxx49er
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shakamuni01
Average Member



USA
213 Posts

Posted - May 15 2012 :  21:34:59  Show Profile Send shakamuni01 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will give it another look. Couldn't seem to find it here in OZ. I think it is for pickles right. I was thinking using alum would be good also for lead acid batteries that are so highly sulphated that they are not taking a charge because the Alum would automatically desulphate the batteries..... at least in theory.
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msmjr
Average Member



USA
444 Posts

Posted - May 17 2012 :  00:00:55  Show Profile Send msmjr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Guys
Sorry for the slow responce. My comp is down and Im stuck with steeling a laptop from other family members. LOL
Shak I watched the video and Im not sure but I dont think putting baking soda is a great idea. After seeing what it does to aluminum
in my HHO gen I dont want it in my batterys. Im on my 3rd battery and all Ive done is rinse with tap water untill all the sediment is gone.
J. Bedini shows using a 4oz bottle (1/4cup) for 1 gal. Ive
tried 6oz per gal and it settles on the bottom, so I stuck with the 4oz. Ive started with a dead battery, a semi reconditioned and a fully
reconditioned 1. You still have to start the conditioning over but what Ive found so far is that the recharge is way faster. As for the
3amp discharge on the 1st battery I was up to 20hrs when I put it to work.
So far Im very happy them.

Growing old is mandatory, Growing up......optional.
He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps.
—Plutius Syrus

Edited by - msmjr on May 17 2012 17:31:18
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